railcard minimum fare

[admiralm]

Hi,

I've read this forum for a while but not posted before.

What is the correct course of action for a ticket inspector to take when someone travels with a railcard-discounted anytime single/return ticket for which the minimum fare has not been paid when it should have been? (i.e. the ticket costs less than £12 but had a railcard discount applied and travel is before 10am mon-fri)

I would have thought the ticket should have been excessed to the minimum fare or non-railcard discount price. However, a friend of mine was recently in this situation and was charged the full price for a new ticket. The ticket inspector said that the discounted ticket was not valid and it was the same situation as if she had not had her railcard with her.

Reading the rules I haven't been able to find an answer - can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks a lot for any response.

 

[mathmo]

Welcome to the forums - that's a good question! I've also looked through the rules (both National Conditions of Carriage and Railcard T&Cs) and can't find an answer either. It would seem reasonable to excess the ticket to the minimum fare or non-railcard fare but I can also see that it might be treated as "no ticket being held". (You could then get a refund on the unused ticket, but with an admin fee you won't get much (if any) back.) So I don't know - I wonder if anyone with FRPP access can shed light on this?

 

[First class]

As you're ticket is NOT VALID without the railcard, you have boarded a train without a valid ticket, and as such, you do not have the option of "the full range of tickets". Therefore the only tickets that can be sold on board are the Full Anytime Single or Return tickete. No off peak or discounted tickets.

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

Your ticket is not valid before 10am as you have not paid the minimum fare.

...you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms...

A Penalty Fare is not appropriate as you cannot be issued a Penalty Fare for a time restriction as per the Penalty Fare Rules 2002.

6. An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction...

You could excess at the ticket office BEFORE you started your journey, but not during.

 

[mathmo]

As you're ticket is NOT VALID without the railcard, you have boarded a train without a valid ticket, and as such, you do not have the option of "the full range of tickets". Therefore the only tickets that can be sold on board are the Full Anytime Single or Return tickete. No off peak or discounted tickets.

Your logic is reasonable. But what confuses me is this (my emphasis):

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket
available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

and the "lowest price ticket available for immediate travel" is either the minimum fare or the non-railcard fare. Which condition takes priority? The Railcard T&Cs don't say, and simply say you should ask at a ticket office (which isn't something "indicated in the notices and publications").

 

[admiralm]

Thank you for these answers - this is the apparent conflict in the rules that left me unsure.

In response to First Class: I presume that the rules you have quoted would apply equally to someone with an off-peak ticket travelling during peak time. But I have seen many cases of passengers charged an excess on an off-peak ticket, and never noticed anyone being forced to buy a new ticket. Should this be happening too, or is there something specific about railcards?

 

[First class]

mathmo- the next section of the part you quoted says:

2B - in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and
publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

As Condition (12B) is relevant here- 12A becomes irrelevant as it is indicated in the notices and publications that a railcard user must pay a £12 minimum fare for journeys before 10am.

As for off peak tickets in peak- theoretically they could be made to buy a new ticket, but everything is always down to individual circumstances. However, discretion is a major part of Revenue Protection. Although they have dealt with you in a legally correct way- making you buy a new ticket was just one of many options available to them. Sometimes you just have to take it on the chin and put it down to experience.

 

[yorkie]

Your logic is reasonable. But what confuses me is this (my emphasis):

and the "lowest price ticket available for immediate travel" is either the minimum fare or the non-railcard fare. Which condition takes priority? The Railcard T&Cs don't say, and simply say you should ask at a ticket office (which isn't something "indicated in the notices and publications").

It clearly has to be an excess, as your quote proves. But a significant minority of staff make up their own rules. And who can stop them?

This thing about tickets that are not valid can't be excessed is rubbish, it's badly worded but it's intended to mean the ticket has no validity whatsoever, not because it's off route or time restricted!

If a ticket is time restricted it should be excessed to the full difference, if it is route restricted then it should be excessed to half the difference.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for off peak tickets in peak- theoretically they could be made to buy a new ticket, but everything is always down to individual circumstances. However, discretion is a major part of Revenue Protection. Although they have dealt with you in a legally correct way- making you buy a new ticket was just one of many options available to them. Sometimes you just have to take it on the chin and put it down to experience.

In other words, you admit that some staff make it up as they go along.

The fact is if you are on a time restricted ticket, using an off peak in the peak, you should be charged an excess.

Would you lot like it if you were overcharged in shops, by your phone provider, by your bank, etc? No, you wouldn't would you? So why is it acceptable to treat customers like scum? This isn't a go at you personally, but the industry in general that has this appalling attitude that allows staff to make the rules up as they go along. It's a training and attitude issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This has all been discussed before in these topics:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=26805&highlight=cambridge+network+railcard

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22352

There was another topic, which I cannot find, where someone used a Network Railcard discounted ticket on a train that Network Railcards were not valid (they were told incorrect information at the barrier), I thought the journey was King's Cross to Cambridge but I am not sure and I can't find it. It raised the same points and the same conclusion was reached.

It is clear from these topic that different staff give different answers. Some make it up as they go along. An excess should be charged.

 

[Wyvern]

I've been trawling through all sorts of website. Am I right in believing the usage restriction does not apply to Senior Railcards?

As an aside- I see there is a HM Forces Railcard. Time was when you just showed your 1250.

4199167

 

[yorkie]

I've been trawling through all sorts of website. Am I right in believing the usage restriction does not apply to Senior Railcards?

Senior Railcards cannot be used for journeys wholly within the London & South East area ("Network area") at times that Off Peak Day tickets are not valid. This varies by route but is generally around 0930.

Bournemouth-Rugby is £45.85 valid on any train to London (as Bournemouth is in the Network area), then any train from Euston to Rugby (thanks to Virgin), compared to Bournemouth to London at over £80 at peak time. So anyone with a Senior Railcard is better off buying to Rugby

 

[tony_mac]

As Condition (12B) is relevant here- 12A becomes irrelevant as it is indicated in the notices and publications that a railcard user must pay a £12 minimum fare for journeys before 10am.

I don't agree with your interpretation, and I think that section is obviously aimed at advance tickets - which cannot be excessed if used on the wrong train.

If your interpretation was correct, then it would equally apply to every type of ticket that was used at the wrong time, which obviously contradicts.

 

[Wyvern]

Senior Railcards cannot be used for journeys wholly within the London & South East area ("Network area") at times that Off Peak Day tickets are not valid.

. . . .(as Bournemouth is in the Network area),

Thanks for that. It is in fact not likely to trouble me living in the Midlands but worth knowing -- not least that Bournemouth is considered part of London and the South East hock:

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for that. It is in fact not likely to trouble me living in the Midlands but worth knowing -- not least that Bournemouth is considered part of London and the South East hock:

If you're shocked at that, get ready for a bigger shock: Weymouth is also part of it!

http://www.railcard.co.uk/clientfiles/File/map.pdf

It's basically from the days of sectorisation. This was the Network SouthEast area.

I believe the boundary used to be shown on this map http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/print_maps/London_South_East.pdf however it no longer is, so you have to refer to the difficult-to-find map above to identify the Network area.

A ticket from inside the Network area, to a destination outside the Network area, that is valid via London, is unrestricted between the origin station and London. The reverse is the case for tickets from outside the area to inside the area. So a Super Off Peak ticket from Manningtree to Peterborough (routed +Any Permitted) is valid at a time when Off Peak tickets from Manningtree to London is barred, for example.

 

[Ivo]

I always wondered why King's Lynn appears on the London & South-East map...

 

[snowhill]

Hi,

I have been following this thread with interest but am confused over your comments that a Senior Railcard cannot be used in the London Area for travel before 09.30.

I have on several occasions bought, and used, an Anytime Day Travelcard and have one in front of me now purchased at Watford on 25 Aug 2009 and used for travel to Euston on the 06.17, then the tube and from Kings Cross to Finsbury Park on the 07.06 Cambridge service followed by the 08.54 FP to Hornsey.

I used the 06.17 from Watford again the following day arriving at London Bridge, by tube, at 07.15. whilst the next day I caught the 06.44 from Tolworth to Clapham Junction again with a locally purchased Anytime Senior Railcard.

Are you saying the rules have changed since August? I hope not because I am in process of planning another four days in the London area all with early morning starts.

Your comments would be appreciated

Dave

 

[yorkie]

http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/buy-senior-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions

Time restrictions

The Railcard discount isn’t available on tickets for travel during the morning rush hour (peak time), Monday to Friday (not including Public Holidays) when journeys are made wholly within the London and South East area. The times of morning off-peak services do vary by route and are normally related to the availability of Off-Peak Day tickets. It's best to check with ticket office staff before buying your tickets. There are some easements to the London and South East area restrictions, see restrictions.

It is difficult to find that rule, but it is there. Unless there is a local easement, it is probable that the clerk who issued the ticket was unaware of it.

If you ask for a ticket, state you are travelling at peak time and are still issued with the discounted ticket, then that forms a contract and they cannot legally excess you in my opinion (others disagree).

 

[snowhill]

Thanks Yorkie.

During my August trip I purchased 3 such tickets - all extremely early in the morning and obviously in the process of travelling and then used the tickets well before 09.30 in several automatic barriers, including LUL ones, without any difficulty.

This contrasts with day trips to London when I have purchased an Off-peak senior Travelcard before 09.30 (on WSMR for example,a superb service) and have been refused access through an automatic barrier until the 09.30 deadline.

It seems to me, a non-professional, strange that the barriers are programmed for one but not the other?.

Cheers

Dave

 

[yorkie]

I bet the barriers are not programmed to make any sense of the intricacies of railcard restrictions. Each railcard has a completely different set of restrictions that varies potentially by what day it is, what month it is, what journey you are doing, etc.

An in-boundary Travelcard not being valid until 0930 is rather different and will be much easier to program I bet. Either the readers read the ticket type or validity code, I am unsure.

 

[snowhill]

Thanks Yorkie