Railcard holders and off-peak returns

[TrainBrain]

Was it not true that once upon a time Disabled Railcard Holders could purchase an off-peak return and it could be used at any time of day? I remember this was the case on the Virgin Manchester to Euston route a number of years ago.

With the last change of ticketing structures, has this benefit now been phased out? I'm looking at a Manchester-Birmingham Intl return in First, which is showing as £51.35 for a First Off-Peak Return, but travel is only after 9.30am. There's a direct 8.27/9.27am, but that costs £102.65 for a First Anytime Return.

Forgive it's been a while since I've actually bought a standard return, as opposed to cheap advance singles. So I'm just trying to relearn the rules!

 

[bb21]

Was it not true that once upon a time Disabled Railcard Holders could purchase an off-peak return and it could be used at any time of day? I remember this was the case on the Virgin Manchester to Euston route a number of years ago.

Not sure about previous rules but this would still be true due to Virgin's railcard concession. The flow is priced by Virgin and you're using Virgin to travel so you do not have time restrictions on your ticket.

With the last change of ticketing structures, has this benefit now been phased out? I'm looking at a Manchester-Birmingham Intl return in First, which is showing as £51.35 for a First Off-Peak Return, but travel is only after 9.30am. There's a direct 8.27/9.27am, but that costs £102.65 for a First Anytime Return.

Manchester - Birmingham International is priced by Cross Country not Virgin, hence restriction still stands.

 

[Deerfold]

Was it not true that once upon a time Disabled Railcard Holders could purchase an off-peak return and it could be used at any time of day? I remember this was the case on the Virgin Manchester to Euston route a number of years ago.

With the last change of ticketing structures, has this benefit now been phased out? I'm looking at a Manchester-Birmingham Intl return in First, which is showing as £51.35 for a First Off-Peak Return, but travel is only after 9.30am. There's a direct 8.27/9.27am, but that costs £102.65 for a First Anytime Return.

Forgive it's been a while since I've actually bought a standard return, as opposed to cheap advance singles. So I'm just trying to relearn the rules!

I believe this concession is only offered by Virgin Trains and so is no longer available on the Cross Country trains you're looking at.

Assuming Birmingham - Manchester is valid via Crewe (which I *think it is) you can travel once an hour by Virgin changing there. The total journey time is about 2 hours, so slightly longer than the direct train.

 

[tony_mac]

This does still exist - but is only the case on Virgin trains and routes.

Manchester to Birmingham will probably be a 'Crosscountry' route, so you can't do it there.
(The small print on the leaflets say that it's not valid on all routes, and you need to check with them - the restriction given in the fares database is something like 'on routes that are priced by Virgin')

 

[John @ home]

Manchester - Birmingham International is priced by Cross Country not Virgin, hence restriction still stands.

To overcome this, buy a Manchester - Nuneaton ticket instead. This journey is priced by Virgin, so the railcard discount should apply at all times. The National Routeing Guide shows that Manchester - Nuneaton is valid via Birmingham International (map MA).

 

[TrainBrain]

Ah that makes sense now. Thanks for all your helpful replies!

 

[All Line Rover]

To overcome this, buy a Manchester - Nuneaton ticket instead. This journey is priced by Virgin, so the railcard discount should apply at all times. The National Routeing Guide shows that Manchester - Nuneaton is valid via Birmingham International (map MA).

I believe that the easement is only valid if you are only travelling on a Virgin Trains train.

The East Coast website shows a Manchester to Nuneaton ticket as "not valid" at peak hours if a London Midland train is involved. Likewise, when you put "via Birmingham", because you need to travel with CrossCountry, it also shows the ticket as being "not valid" at peak hours.

Don't get caught out!

 

[SS4]

Could you get a train to Rugby and stop short?

 

[mumrar]

The easement is only valid when travelling on Virgin Trains services, I'm not sure it has to be priced by Virgin, for example a Milton Keynes to Brighton or similar you could travel before the restriction times, so long as the tube and Brighton service abide by the restrictions.

 

[All Line Rover]

Like I said above, a Manchester to Nuneaton return ticket would only be valid at peak hours if you only travel with Virgin Trains.

Unfortunately, to do so, you would have to travel:

1. From Manchester to Crewe
2. From Crewe to Wolverhampton/Birmingham
3. From Wolverhampton/Birmingham to Birmingham International

Obviously a bit inconvenient!

Also, Virgin Trains don't have any First Class Off-Peak tickets (apart from selected stations on the Liverpool to London route). It's all well and good having a concession allowing Off-Peak tickets on Peak trains with a Railcard, but not very helpful if there isn't an Off-Peak ticket in the first place! CrossCountry seem to have loads of First Off-Peak tickets, but not Virgin.

If you decided to change at Crewe and Birmingham, though, and travel Standard Class, a Manchester to Nuneaton Off-Peak return ticket is just £24.05 - significantly cheaper than a Manchester to Birmingham Anytime return ticket, costing £43.55.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you wish to travel direct with CrossCountry, First Class, on a peak train, the cheapest option is to split your ticket at Stoke-on-Trent. All direct Manchester to Birmingham International trains stop at Stoke-on-Trent.

• £23.15 (Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent First Class Anytime Return)
• £32.35 (Stoke-on-Trent to Birmingham International First Class Anytime Return)

TOTAL: £55.50. This is only slightly higher than the direct Off-Peak fare of £51.35, and significantly cheaper than the direct Anytime fare of £102.65!

Since all the trains stops at Stoke-on-Trent, you simply need to show your two tickets to the ticket inspector. You do not have to get off the train.

The Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent ticket also permits entry to the First Class lounge at Manchester Piccadilly, since you "could" travel with Virgin Trains.

 

[John @ home]

Like I said above, a Manchester to Nuneaton return ticket would only be valid at peak hours if you only travel with Virgin Trains.

Not quite. A number of issues need to be unravelled. To use railcard discounted tickets without time restrictions:

• the fare for the journey between the origin and the destination printed on the ticket must be priced by Virgin trains, and
• the "Route" printed on the ticket must not be "Virgin trains only", and
• the ticket type must be SVS (Standard Off-Peak Single) or SVR (Standard Off-Peak Return)

Unfortunately the third restriction above means that TrainBrain is unlikely to obtain an early discount in First Class accommodation. Advance tickets are likely to be more suitable, if available.

But it is not quite true to say that the ticket would only be valid at peak hours if you only travel with Virgin Trains. For a journey which met the three conditions above and which involved travelling with both Virgin Trains and another train company, there would be no time restrictions on the Virgin Train. But validity of the ticket "at peak hours" with any other train company would depend on the precise wording of the restriction.

Taking TrainBrain's proposed Manchester - Birmingham International journey, a £22.95 railcard discounted Standard Off-Peak Return (SVR) Manchester - Birmingham International has Restriction 2V which does indeed say Monday to Friday: by any train except those scheduled to depart before 0930. This is valid on the direct 0627 Manchester - Birmingham International 0819 because that is a Virgin train.

But a £24.05 railcard discounted Standard Off-Peak Return (SVR) Manchester - Nuneaton has Restriction 2R which says Monday to Friday: by any train except those scheduled to depart before 0900. So it is valid on 0735 Manchester - Nuneaton 0844 because that is a Virgin train. The return portion can then be used almost immediately on London Midland's 0902 Nuneaton - Rugby and 0937 Rugby - Birmingham International arriving 1004 because they meet Restriction 2V. Then this portion remains valid for a month for Birmingham International - Manchester via Wolverhampton (M-F not before 1004).

A £27.85 railcard discounted Standard Off-Peak Return (SVR) Manchester - Rugby has Restriction 2T which says Monday to Friday: by any train except those scheduled to depart before 0415. This is valid by a much wider range of early morning services between Manchester and Birmingham International.

All the SVR fares above (but not all SVR fares) allow break of either or both legs of the journey.

 

[island]

The return portion can then be used almost immediately on London Midland's 0902 Nuneaton - Rugby and 0937 Rugby - Birmingham International arriving 1004 because they meet Restriction 2V. Then this portion remains valid for a month for Birmingham International - Manchester via Wolverhampton (M-F not before 1004).

Isn't it the case that once you start your return journey on an SVR you are only allowed to break it overnight once, after which you must recommence your journey by 1200 the next day with no further break of journey except to change trains?

 

[LexyBoy]

Isn't it the case that once you start your return journey on an SVR you are only allowed to break it overnight once, after which you must recommence your journey by 1200 the next day with no further break of journey except to change trains?

No, you can break and resume as much as you like within the validity period - you're thinking of Day Returns (or the last day of validity on a SVR)

 

[tony_mac]

• the fare for the journey between the origin and the destination printed on the ticket must be priced by Virgin trains, and
• the "Route" printed on the ticket must not be "Virgin trains only", and
• the ticket type must be SVS (Standard Off-Peak Single) or SVR (Standard Off-Peak Return)

Is that information actually available to the public? I've never seen it anywhere. (items two and three, anyway)

Manchester - Birmingham International has Restriction 2V.....This is valid on the direct 0627 Manchester - Birmingham International 0819 because that is a Virgin train.

Even though it's priced by Crosscountry?

 

[First class]

2) Holders of Off-Peak ticket
types SVS/SVR, which are
discounted using 16-25, Senior
, Disabled Persons, HM Forces
and Family & Friends Railcards
, New Deal Photocards and
Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards,
may use ANY Virgin_train
service, provided that the
route on the ticket is not
"Virgin Trains Only" and the
journey being made is priced
by Virgin Trains. If the
journey is not priced by
Virgin Trains then the stated
Off-Peak restictions apply.

1) Got to be priced by Virgin
2) Got to be a Virgin service

 

[RJ]

1) Got to be priced by Virgin
2) Got to be a Virgin service

3) Got to be an interavailable ticket
4) Got to be an ticket type SVS/SVR (Off Peak Single/Return)

That's all there is to it!

 

[All Line Rover]

Not quite. A number of issues need to be unravelled. To use railcard discounted tickets without time restrictions:

• the fare for the journey between the origin and the destination printed on the ticket must be priced by Virgin trains, and
• the "Route" printed on the ticket must not be "Virgin trains only", and
• the ticket type must be SVS (Standard Off-Peak Single) or SVR (Standard Off-Peak Return)

Unfortunately the third restriction above means that TrainBrain is unlikely to obtain an early discount in First Class accommodation. Advance tickets are likely to be more suitable, if available.

But it is not quite true to say that the ticket would only be valid at peak hours if you only travel with Virgin Trains. For a journey which met the three conditions above and which involved travelling with both Virgin Trains and another train company, there would be no time restrictions on the Virgin Train. But validity of the ticket "at peak hours" with any other train company would depend on the precise wording of the restriction.

Taking TrainBrain's proposed Manchester - Birmingham International journey, a £22.95 railcard discounted Standard Off-Peak Return (SVR) Manchester - Birmingham International has Restriction 2V which does indeed say Monday to Friday: by any train except those scheduled to depart before 0930. This is valid on the direct 0627 Manchester - Birmingham International 0819 because that is a Virgin train.

But a £24.05 railcard discounted Standard Off-Peak Return (SVR) Manchester - Nuneaton has Restriction 2R which says Monday to Friday: by any train except those scheduled to depart before 0900. So it is valid on 0735 Manchester - Nuneaton 0844 because that is a Virgin train. The return portion can then be used almost immediately on London Midland's 0902 Nuneaton - Rugby and 0937 Rugby - Birmingham International arriving 1004 because they meet Restriction 2V. Then this portion remains valid for a month for Birmingham International - Manchester via Wolverhampton (M-F not before 1004).

A £27.85 railcard discounted Standard Off-Peak Return (SVR) Manchester - Rugby has Restriction 2T which says Monday to Friday: by any train except those scheduled to depart before 0415. This is valid by a much wider range of early morning services between Manchester and Birmingham International.

All the SVR fares above (but not all SVR fares) allow break of either or both legs of the journey.

Sorry! You are correct - it is only valid on Standard Class tickets. I didn't have time to look at Avantix! East Coast's website shows the Liverpool to London First Class Off-Peak return as not being valid on peak services. Then again, that isn't a big loss, as VT have very few First Off-Peak tickets anyway!

 

[bengolding]

As others have mentioned, Virgin have only a handful of First Off Peak fares. The 'tria' has gone on for ages and I don't see why they can't follow the likes of EMT, FGW and XC by introdcing these off peak fares to fill more First Class seats on off peak Pendolinos.

They operate 1 single direct service leaving Manchester via the West Midlands at 06:27 but bizarrely nothing in the reverse (there used to be a 17:10 from Euston a few yrs back via New St).

Get the Manchester-Stoke FDR £23.15 (cheaper VT only £16.95 if you're getting the 06:27 out and can change at Stoke on the return for a VT service).

Stoke-BHI FDR is £32.35 but goes down to £27.50 by splitting at Wolves, £26.75 by splitting at Stafford and £25.15 by splitting at Stafford and Wolves! You save an additional £2.20 by getting a VT only Wolves-BHI ticket (do-able as you have 5 mins at both stations to change services).

 

[yorkie]

It is advertised as being off peak tickets on Virgin Trains, and that is what guards announce.

If anyone honestly believes that a guard will look up the restriction code of each ticket, and then quote from a hidden manual that the general public have no access to, and charge an excess fare because the journey is "priced by another TOC" is, quite frankly in some sort of cloud cuckoo land.