Railcard fraud

[saismee]

The op has already done that by an email that sent which said.

"At the time of inspection, I was unable to present my railcard due to unexpected internet issues that prevented me from accessing the digital version on my phone.."

But OP had said in fact his railcard expired in 2024 and he purchased a new railcard at some point after being stopped.

Could OP not say they were unaware that the railcard had expired as they hadn't checked it in a while?

 

[styles]

The op has already done that by an email that sent which said.

"At the time of inspection, I was unable to present my railcard due to unexpected internet issues that prevented me from accessing the digital version on my phone.."

But OP had said in fact his railcard expired in 2024 and he purchased a new railcard at some point after being stopped.

Yes, hence advising they need to be honest.

 

[enyoueffsea]

Could OP not say they were unaware that the railcard had expired as they hadn't checked it in a while?

No, because it was the second time Northern caught them for the same issue.

 

[Tramfan]

Before you compose these emails you really need to sit down and set out all the events and communications you have received in chronological order for each company separately. The account you have given so far is very difficult for the forum to follow.

Definitely think this needs to be the OP's first step, and the sooner the better to try and avoid the situation getting any messier

 

[KirkstallOne]

Could OP not say they were unaware that the railcard had expired as they hadn't checked it in a while?

I don’t think as a forum we can ever encourage posters to think of things that may be true to proffer as excuses.

The train companies will more than likely be happy to settle this with the OP if they engage with them constructively, but they will need to organise themselves and be clear in their correspondence.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could OP not say they were unaware that the railcard had expired as they hadn't checked it in a while?

That would be a lie, and provably so, as they were stopped for it three separate times over four months.

 

[saismee]

That would be a lie, and provably so, as they were stopped for it three separate times over four months.

Nevermind then. It seems OP has well and truly wedged themselves in a seemingly impossible position.

 

[isukzw]

Hello everyone,



Thank you for the guidance, I was able to pay the fines with Northern. However, I’ve just received an email from TransPennine asking me to pay almost £3,000.



I have a few questions: a few of the trips listed were booked but I didn’t actually travel, and some trips listed were the fines that have been paid already.



At the moment, I’m in and out of work as I don’t have a permanent job. I’d like to propose an installment plan of £100 per month. Do you think they would accept this arrangement?, I also want to ask for reduction considering I didn’t go on all the trips but I can’t state the particular days.

 

[John R]

I highly doubt that they would accept a payment plan of £100 a months for a 2.8k debt. They have a couple of months in which to prosecute, so a two year period is unrealistic.

If you can't state which days you didn't travel, then you can't expect them to exclude them. If you didn't travel, why didn't you claim a refund? You could easily justify removing the cases where you were Penalty Fared though, providing you give evidence.

It's rare we say this, but if you can't afford to pay them I think you're staring prosecution in the face. It is possible that a solicitor could help reduce the cost of a settlement, but the cost of their fees would significantly eat into the cost of any saving they make (and if they can't, then you end up paying even more).

 

[WesternLancer]

Have you had a full breakdown of the journeys they believe did not have correct tickets that make up the £3k ?

Can you evidence any occasions where they have it wrong?

 

[isukzw]

Have you had a full breakdown of the journeys they believe did not have correct tickets that make up the £3k ?

Can you evidence any occasions where they have it wrong?

To be honest, I can’t track the exact days but on different occasions I didn’t travel because I was off work for a day and I book my ticket weekly

 

[enyoueffsea]

Unfortunately your options are limited to pay up or get prosecuted.

You can try to ask for a payment arrangement but these are few and far between. Don’t ask, don’t get but the reality is it’s unlikely. It’s certainly not going to happen at anything like £100pm and you’d need to be getting closer to 10x that to pay it in 3 to stand any chance.

You can ask for a breakdown of journeys to consider challenging those which you do not believe you travelled on but unless you know exactly which dates and can produce evidence, they’re unlikely to remove them from their calculations.

You’ll be able to get those where you’ve paid a PFN removed, but again will need to submit evidence of the PFNs and payment. Although that may open another can of worms where they recognise you’ve done this repeatedly, been caught repeatedly and still not changed your ways.

Whatever happens you must absolutely stop evading fares.

 

[Egg Centric]

Thank you for the guidance, I was able to pay the fines with Northern.

Can you attach all your correspondence to/from Northern? While very unlikely, it has been known for TOCs to make foolishly broad settlement agreements.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I think uploading the correspondence as @Egg Centric suggested could help us get our bearings on what is quite a confused case. How many journeys did you settle with Northern and for how much? Is there any overlap between the journeys Northern demanded a settlement for and TPE?

As for TPE, you could write and explain your difficult financial circumstances and offer what you could afford. From the train companies point of view something may be better than whatever they will get by prosecuting and it sounds like you are in a position where you don’t have many alternatives. The absolute minimum I would consider offering would be the discounts you incorrectly claimed plus costs.

Also I am confused about the weekly ticket aspect. How many days do you normally work? How much is this ticket? How many days out of 7 have TPE assumed you have travelled?

As before it really is difficult to give good advice when you cannot give a clear picture of what you have done and what the two train companies are saying.

 

[dosxuk]

I’d like to propose an installment plan of £100 per month. Do you think they would accept this arrangement?

No

Not in a million years would they accept such a plan. Even suggesting it will likely make them go "ok then, we'll see you in court".

If you are convicted in court, then a payment plan can normally be arranged. This is because the courts have lots of options available to them if you default on those payments. A TOC can only threaten you with conviction, and that option runs out for them at the end of six months from the incident - so they will want to ensure that all moneys due are paid to them before that time runs out.

 

[WesternLancer]

No

Not in a million years would they accept such a plan. Even suggesting it will likely make them go "ok then, we'll see you in court".

If you are convicted in court, then a payment plan can normally be arranged. This is because the courts have lots of options available to them if you default on those payments. A TOC can only threaten you with conviction, and that option runs out for them at the end of six months from the incident - so they will want to ensure that all moneys due are paid to them before that time runs out.

I think the only option the OP can do is that suggested by @KirkstallOne and see what happens - worded politely I can't see that there is anything to actually lose by asking
ie this:

As for TPE, you could write and explain your difficult financial circumstances and offer what you could afford. From the train companies point of view something may be better than whatever they will get by prosecuting and it sounds like you are in a position where you don’t have many alternatives. The absolute minimum I would consider offering would be the discounts you incorrectly claimed plus costs.

The other thing we know is that at least one train company (SWR) has an agreement in place with a debt management company of some sort - which is basically a loan I suspect - where they suggest that if the person can't pay they enter into an agreement with that debt company to pay the settlement demanded. But AFAIK we've not seen anyone do this and tell us about it here. No idea if TPE might do something like that, but if you ask about instalment payments you would at least be told.

In contrast if it went to court the court fine etc can be paid in installments as explained above as courts have well developed systems to cover all that in the event of defaults, including bailiffs / attachments of earnings orders etc.