Railcard & Contactless anomalies

[MarlowDonkey]

It's known that Railcards cannot be loaded to bank cards used for contactless travel. It's also suspected that the reason is a "won't" rather than "can't".

There are anomalies outside the Oyster area.

For example my local station, Marlow, acquired a contactless reader after the implementation of Elizabeth Line services from Maidenhead alongside GWR ones.

Using the forum's ticketing website I can establish that the cost of an off peak day return to Paddington would be £ 22.20 without a railcard and £ 14.75 with a Senior or other "one third off" Railcard.

A Single one way ticket would cost £ 12.65 with the Railcard and £ 19.00 without.

The forum's site doesn't mention it, but according to the National Rail enquiries site, the contactless price is £ 11.10. This undercuts even the Railcard price for a single journey. It's a relevant point when planning longer distance travel and possibly splitting in London as period returns are not available from Marlow to Paddington.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As PAYG was extended out to Reading and the Thames Valley branches prior to Project Oval, GWR weren't required to align traditional and PAYG fares as part of the extension.

Hence there's no Off-Peak Single between Marlow and Paddington, but the Off-Peak PAYG fare is 50% of the Off-Peak Day Return fare.

 

[JonathanH]

An off-peak day single from Marlow to Eynsford (which is in Project Oval) is £7.55 with a railcard.

Interestingly, the off-peak day single fares from Reading to Eynsford were restored to 'traditional' pricing in March, having been single leg pricing since fares were reset for Project Oval, whereas the Eynsford to Reading off-peak day single fare remained on a single leg basis, but seems to be back on single leg pricing again.

Perhaps there is some testing going on as to whether people in Reading are taking 'undue advantage' of the Eynsford anomaly.

One observation is that you can stop short on 'paper' fares but can't avoid the intended fare on Contactless.

 

[Sonic1234]

One observation is that you can stop short on 'paper' fares but can't avoid the intended fare on Contactless.

Also break of journey, if this is something you want to do. Even within the London Zones, if you want to visit more than one place on a route, it can be better to buy an overpriced paper ticket and use break of journey than pay separate Contactless fares.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's known that Railcards cannot be loaded to bank cards used for contactless travel. It's also suspected that the reason is a "won't" rather than "can't".

Not being able to load a railcard discount directly to a bank debit or credit card is a known fact. As has been mentioned many times it would have to be done in the back office system by linking the bank card to a railcard through a TfL account.

 

[miklcct]

Not being able to load a railcard discount directly to a bank debit or credit card is a known fact. As has been mentioned many times it would have to be done in the back office system by linking the bank card to a railcard through a TfL account.

So it is a won't (TfL won't develop the system to do it), rather than a can't (as other countries have proved that it is possible).

 

[The exile]

So it is a won't (TfL won't develop the system to do it), rather than a can't (as other countries have proved that it is possible).

Though by linking data in the "back office" we're into the realms of data protection where there may also be a legal "mustn't". No idea whether that applies in this country or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a "won't for now". If the project to move Oyster onto the contactless back-end moves forward, which it'll need to at some point as Oyster is essentially obsolete, either it'll be part of that or TfL will withdraw from Railcards entirely, one or the other!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It's a "won't for now". If the project to move Oyster onto the contactless back-end moves forward, which it'll need to at some point as Oyster is essentially obsolete, either it'll be part of that or TfL will withdraw from Railcards entirely, one or the other!

Contactless is not just TfL. As the contactless zone extends beyond Greater London, lack of support for railcards becomes an impediment to wider adoption on GWR, Chiltern etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Contactless is not just TfL. As the contactless zone extends beyond Greater London, lack of support for railcards becomes an impediment to wider adoption on GWR, Chiltern etc.

It doesn't do anything of the sort, because those with Railcards can simply purchase paper tickets which are, in most of the Oval area, exactly the same price (give or take minor anomalies on peak restrictions which occur because contactless and paper tickets work differently, e.g. contactless peak is based on touch-in time whereas ticket peak is based on the actual train time, and which can work either way so sometimes a paper ticket can be better value and sometimes contactless*). The approach taken inside the TfL area of punitively pricing paper tickets does not apply to the wider Oval area and there is no plan I have ever heard of to change that.

* Ignoring that there is a big anomaly going on at the moment making contactless fares *much* cheaper than paper for some journeys, which I think I heard mentioned was caused by boundary zone fare anomalies and will no doubt be fixed in due course.

 

[cool110]

Though by linking data in the "back office" we're into the realms of data protection where there may also be a legal "mustn't". No idea whether that applies in this country or not.

It won't, the Netherlands do it and the small differences between the UK and EU versions of GDPR aren't relevant to this situation.

 

[Haywain]

It doesn't do anything of the sort, because those with Railcards can simply purchase paper tickets

And that's not an impediment to wider take up of contactless ticketing? If it reduces the number of people who can use contactless that's an impediment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that's not an impediment to wider take up of contactless ticketing? If it reduces the number of people who can use contactless that's an impediment.

It is an impediment on takeup, yes, but it's one that isn't disastrous and will, unless TfL withdraw from Railcard acceptance entirely, be fixed in due course.

It's absolutely not an impediment on extending the Oval area, as it as much applies to Bletchley as it does to Milton Keynes Central. I suspect the reason why Oval stopped short of places like MKC and Stevenage this time was simply because of the multiple TOCs serving those stations meaning the fares are rather complex. Once GBR does a tidy-up of TOC specific fares as they no doubt will, it can then be moved out a bit further, though going past the rump Network SouthEast area is probably unlikely.

 

[swt_passenger]

So it is a won't (TfL won't develop the system to do it), rather than a can't (as other countries have proved that it is possible).

Whatever they eventually do in the back office processing software, they won’t be loading anything onto the physical card, which is what the OP was implying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whatever they eventually do in the back office processing software, they won’t be loading anything onto the physical card, which is what the OP was implying.

Correct. What will happen is that Oyster cards will just become simple RFID type cards and all processing will move into the back office. Stored value cards are a 1990s concept from when it wasn't possible to have ticket gates and inspection devices online in real time. It is now.

Obviously you can't load anything to a debit card in any case, as it's not TfL's to do that and there's no way for them to do it. The Railcard would be associated with the online account attached to the contactless or Oyster card.

 

[unsatisfied]

An off-peak day single from Marlow to Eynsford (which is in Project Oval) is £7.55 with a railcard.

Interestingly, the off-peak day single fares from Reading to Eynsford were restored to 'traditional' pricing in March, having been single leg pricing since fares were reset for Project Oval, whereas the Eynsford to Reading off-peak day single fare remained on a single leg basis, but seems to be back on single leg pricing again.

Perhaps there is some testing going on as to whether people in Reading are taking 'undue advantage' of the Eynsford anomaly.

One observation is that you can stop short on 'paper' fares but can't avoid the intended fare on Contactless.

Can I buy an off-peak single (not advance) from Eynsford to Reading (via Paddington), board at 19:04 at Paddington (despite if I had boarded at Eynsford I would have travelled before 19:00 so peak) and resume normally to Reading? (I am using a railcard so I don't simply use contactless Paddington to Reading)
The two things I am unsure about is
1) boarding half-way through the ticket journey
2) boarding a train I wouldn't have been able to take had I travelled from the origin station of my ticket. The 19:04 from Paddington is off-peak, but travelling from Eysnford to take this train would means I would need to board trains during peak times (17:35, 17:48, 18:28 tube).
I believe I am allowed to do both of these, as for point 1 it isn't an advance ticket so I can do break of journey and partial journeys, and for point 2 I am allowed because the only restriction for this ticket (code PY) is not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 and trains timed to depart after 16:00 and before 19:00, which I won't be doing as I start my journey at 19:04. Am I correct?

 

[JonathanH]

Can I buy an off-peak single (not advance) from Eynsford to Reading (via Paddington), board at 19:04 at Paddington (despite if I had boarded at Eynsford I would have travelled before 19:00 so peak) and resume normally to Reading? (I am using a railcard so I don't simply use contactless Paddington to Reading)

As you note, there is no break of journey restriction and the travel restriction reads "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 and trains timed to depart after 16:00 and before 19:00."

A passenger can legitimately start a journey at, say, 1400, travel before 1600, break their journey, then resume at 1900.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The 19:04 from Paddington is off-peak, but travelling from Eysnford to take this train would means I would need to board trains during peak times (17:35, 17:48, 18:28 tube).

Evening restrictions from Paddington are based on Paddington departure times as well as the restriction code.

Not every off peak ticket bans the use of evening peak hour services from Paddington, not that the staff at Paddington are always aware of this.

 

[unsatisfied]

As you note, there is no break of journey restriction and the travel restriction reads "Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 and trains timed to depart after 16:00 and before 19:00."

A passenger can legitimately start a journey at, say, 1400, travel before 1600, break their journey, then resume at 1900.

Thank you for your super fast reply, I will do this and report back!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2025 ==

Evening restrictions from Paddington are based on Paddington departure times as well as the restriction code.

Not every off peak ticket bans the use of evening peak hour services from Paddington, not that the staff at Paddington are always aware of this.

The National Rail journey planner seems to only offer off-peak tickets Eynsford to Reading if all trains are scheduled to depart on or after 19:00 (I only checked around this time). Anyway in my recent experience the National Rail journey planner is not always to be trusted!

 

[plugwash]

The forum's site doesn't mention it, but according to the National Rail enquiries site, the contactless price is £ 11.10. This undercuts even the Railcard price for a single journey.

British rail had a policy of charging a lot for singles often nearly as much as a return. Presumablly the thinking was this meant less revenue loss from the "pay when challanged" crowd. Some TOCs have changed fare setting policies since the end of BR but there are still many flows on which it remains the case that a single costs nearly as much as a return.

The london pay as you go system on the other hand has no concept of return tickets. If the single PAYG fares had been set at the same level as traditional single fares then contactless would have ended up significantly more expensive for most travellers, which would have strongly discouraged adoption. So for the most part contactless single fares were set at roughly half the price of the corresponding traditional return fares. As you have observed this often makes them significantly cheaper than traditional single fares.

 

[JonathanH]

The National Rail journey planner seems to only offer off-peak tickets Eynsford to Reading if all trains are scheduled to depart on or after 19:00 (I only checked around this time). Anyway in my recent experience the National Rail journey planner is not always to be trusted!

The forum's booking engine can be populated in such a way (with a 180 minute wait at Paddngton) to ensure a railcard discounted booking from Eynsford to Reading using the 1904 from Paddington.
https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/re...ass=false&flexible=false&selectionMethod=Grid

 

[Haywain]

British rail had a policy of charging a lot for singles often nearly as much as a return.

Or was there a policy of heavily discounting return tickets?

 

[Watershed]

Or was there a policy of heavily discounting return tickets?

Given that the majority of people - in BR days at any rate - use return tickets I don't think they can be regarded as discounted. They represent the normal fare as far as most people are concerned.

 

[unsatisfied]

Or was there a policy of heavily discounting return tickets?

According to DfT the regulated fare is anytime day return

 

[CyrusWuff]

According to DfT the regulated fare is anytime day return

Depending on the specific journey. And in some cases there is no regulated fare at all.

 

[unsatisfied]

I was at Paddington before 19:00 and wanted to buy my ticket straight away but the ticket machines weren’t selling off-peak tickets from Eynsford yet, so I went to the staffed ticket office.

The agent refused to sell me a single from Eynsford to Reading for today because “people are abusing the system”. It should be noted I didn’t elaborate why I wanted it from Eynsford, and when I said what the price of the ticket should be he confirmed it was the single price, so he himself was the one not selling it to me, not his sales terminal.

Well Mr GWR I’m afraid you’re the ones abusing us with your outrageous nonsensical fares for singles!

Anyway I waited a few minutes and at 19:01 (ticket machine local time and actual time) the off-peak fare option finally showed up on the automated ticket machines and I bought it. It was accepted no issues at the automated barrier gates at the platform and I boarded. A few minutes later the train departed. I would have preferred getting my ticket earlier to have more time finding a seat, but unfortunately ticket desk staff believe they are bouncers . Maybe if I had insisted he would have sold me it, but I didn't push it.

Unfortunately there was no ticket inspector aboard to verify further, but by that fact my ticket was accepted by the barrier gates and I believe I am respecting the ticket restrictions, it appears this works. Saved me £2.90, but this saving is still £1.65 short what I'd save if TfL bothered to apply railcard discounts to contactless!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2025 ==

Depending on the specific journey. And in some cases there is no regulated fare at all.

I was told

regulated fares include shorter-distance peak returns alongside longer-distance off-peak returns. When there are no return fares, the relevant single fare is regulated

for my cases (my journeys are usually less than an hour)

the Anytime Day Return fare is the regulated fare, for all other fares the train operator has flexibility in how they set their prices

for a journey which involves multiple changes despite being geographically close

there is no regulated fare on [this] route, as despite being close geographically, these stations are on different lines and require multiple changes to make the journey.

(I had used an example of two stations in an area with multiple lines, but the point was that off-peak singles are only negligibly cheaper than off-peak returns, which is the also case Waterloo to Portsmouth on-the-day super off-peak tickets £41.80 vs £42.80. But this tells me there are indeed sometimes no regulated fares)

 

[Haywain]

According to DfT the regulated fare is anytime day return

Usually priced at twice the single fare or thereabouts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2025 ==

Given that the majority of people - in BR days at any rate - use return tickets I don't think they can be regarded as discounted. They represent the normal fare as far as most people are concerned.

That doesn't alter the fact that Cheap Day Returns were originally a discounted fare, just above the price of two singles.

 

[JonathanH]

I was at Paddington before 19:00 and wanted to buy my ticket straight away but the ticket machines weren’t selling off-peak tickets from Eynsford yet, so I went to the staffed ticket office.

The S&B ticket machines have a "Tickets for future travel" button which allows a passenger to bypass that particular issue.

 

[unsatisfied]

The S&B ticket machines have a "Tickets for future travel" button which allows a passenger to bypass that particular issue.

Thank you, I had assumed this was only for later dates (and didn't consider later times on the same day) and never checked this out!

 

[akm]

The agent refused to sell me a single from Eynsford to Reading for today because “people are abusing the system”.

Is this allowed??