Railcard boundaries in silly places

[DJ_K666]

Trainsplit, which also powers the forum site, will happily apply the railcard to the appropriate part of the journey.

That's good to know

 

[OscarH]

One of my friends is bemoans the higher rail fares vers bus and I always explain successive governments want passengers to pay more. Bus fares don't take into account road repair costs as much as train fares do, is my understanding.

They may live in a lucky region (or an unlucky region for rail), but except the period of the £2 bus fare cap, but in most places I've lived the buses are far more expensive than the train (WMPTE excepted)

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

The different boundaries can sometimes cause issues. I remember I was planning on going to Ipswich at the weekend so, having 10 minutes before my train to work, went to the ticket office and asked for a day return to Ipswich for Saturday on my Gold Card. The minutes ticked by, the clerk (who was very experienced but obviously not very up to date) eventually said, "you can't get Gold Card discount to Ipswich, the border's at Manningtree." "No it's not, it covers most of East Anglia" I replied. At this point he produced a map showing the Network railcard area and pointed to Manningtree. I told him that the Gold Card area is larger, for example it extends to Birmingham. He point blank refused to believe me, just kept saying they were the same area, and by then it was about 30 seconds before my train so I stormed off in a huff. It shouldn't wind me up so much, but it really gets to me when people will not listen and just keep repeating incorrect information as if it's fact.

Anyway, the next morning my then toddler bumped his head quite badly and we had to go to A&E. By the time he'd been checked over, it was about 10 minutes too late to get to Ipswich for kick off, so I didn't end up buying a train ticket anyway. We won 1-0.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The different boundaries can sometimes cause issues. I remember I was planning on going to Ipswich at the weekend so, having 10 minutes before my train to work, went to the ticket office and asked for a day return to Ipswich for Saturday on my Gold Card. The minutes ticked by, the clerk (who was very experienced but obviously not very up to date) eventually said, "you can't get Gold Card discount to Ipswich, the border's at Manningtree." "No it's not, it covers most of East Anglia" I replied. At this point he produced a map showing the Network railcard area and pointed to Manningtree. I told him that the Gold Card area is larger, for example it extends to Birmingham. He point blank refused to believe me, just kept saying they were the same area, and by then it was about 30 seconds before my train so I stormed off in a huff. It shouldn't wind me up so much, but it really gets to me when people will not listen and just keep repeating incorrect information as if it's fact.

Sadly this is not an uncommon experience of ticket offices. Purchase tickets online and pick up at the TVM if necessary (or if you just want a simple walk up paper ticket purchase directly from the TVM). There are too many booking office staff who are adverts for the benefits of the abolition of booking offices, sadly. It should be an opportunity to offer excellent personal service, but so often it's not.

I personally avoid using booking offices wherever possible due to the consistently poor service I have received from them, and that's nothing new, it goes back to BR days when one couldn't avoid using them as they were mostly the only purchase option.

 

[yorksrob]

One of my friends is bemoans the higher rail fares vers bus and I always explain successive governments want passengers to pay more. Bus fares don't take into account road repair costs as much as train fares do, is my understanding.

I guess the same argument applies to the rail card. If they make it national, they think it will bring in less revenue, or require more investment in services, which in turn will cost more than the status quo. I have no idea if that is the actual case.

Oh it's all down to cost, without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[Mark J]

The solution is to abolish the Network Railcard boundary altogether and have a true Network wide railcard that every other sensible developed country seems to manage, but the Establishment here seem unable to countenance.

Agree with that!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2025 ==

I also wonder why I can freely purchase a Network Railcard without any proof of identity, or address.

Yet if I wanted to purchase a Devon and Cornwall Railcard, I need to provide both.

The latter provides the same ⅓ off as the Network Card does. It isn't like it offers any extra special benefits that need to be restricted.

 

[OscarH]

Agree with that!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2025 ==

I also wonder why I can freely purchase a Network Railcard without any proof of identity, or address.

Yet if I wanted to purchase a Devon and Cornwall Railcard, I need to provide both.

The latter provides the same ⅓ off as the Network Card does. It isn't like it offers any extra special benefits that need to be restricted.

I imagine the reasoning is the Devon and Cornwall Railcard is intended to provide a discount to residents, while tourists pay full price. So it's important to make sure people actually live there to issue the railcard.

The Network Railcard isn't specifically aimed at residents, though they're most likely to have one naturally.

 

[yorksrob]

Agree with that!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2025 ==

I also wonder why I can freely purchase a Network Railcard without any proof of identity, or address.

Yet if I wanted to purchase a Devon and Cornwall Railcard, I need to provide both.

The latter provides the same ⅓ off as the Network Card does. It isn't like it offers any extra special benefits that need to be restricted.

I imagine the reasoning is the Devon and Cornwall Railcard is intended to provide a discount to residents, while tourists pay full price. So it's important to make sure people actually live there to issue the railcard.

The Network Railcard isn't specifically aimed at residents, though they're most likely to have one naturally.

If the Establishment were truly interested in "simplifying" fares, having a national railcard available to all would help (as plenty of other Western countries seem to manage).

They seem strangely silent on the issue though ....

 

[Mark J]

If the Establishment were truly interested in "simplifying" fares, having a national railcard available to all would help (as plenty of other Western countries seem to manage).

They seem strangely silent on the issue though ....

I've always been a supporter of a National Railcard for all.

It would remove the plethora of different Railcards on offer - all offering varying discounts - down to just one.

If priced appropriately, I really can't see such a card being revenue negative overall.

Some Railcards are utterly pointless. What is the point of the 'Cotswold Line Railcard', when the Network Card covers the whole Cotswold Line from Oxford to Worcester.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Some Railcards are utterly pointless. What is the point of the 'Cotswold Line Railcard', when the Network Card covers the whole Cotswold Line from Oxford to Worcester.

The Cotswold Line Railcard offers discounts when Off-peak tickets are valid, whilst the Network Railcard is more restricted - acknowleged there are easements on the normal 10am Network Railcard rule for journeys on the Cotswold line in the London direction.

The Cotswold Line Railcard costs £9.95, the Network Railcard costs £35.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, the Network Railcard has been consistently mauled by fly-by-night private outfits.

 

[Kite159]

Yes, the Network Railcard has been consistently mauled by fly-by-night private outfits.

In what way has it been "consistently mauled", the minimum fare has been the same since 2009 and the area hasn't decreased (other than with line closures) since it got introduced?

 

[yorksrob]

The minimum fare reduces a lot of its usefulness. As do increasing off peak restrictions.

It's not as useful as it was when introduced.

 

[Kite159]

The minimum fare reduces a lot of its usefulness. As do increasing off peak restrictions.

It's not as useful as it was when introduced.

The minimum fare which was last increased in 2009 rather than being consistently mauled as you claimed.

And the changing off peak types on routes due to project Oval has little to do with the Railcard

 

[yorksrob]

The minimum fare which was last increased in 2009 rather than being consistently mauled as you claimed.

And the changing off peak types on routes due to project Oval has little to do with the Railcard

It still makes it less useful.

Why not have the same conditions as other railcards. Are you arguing that that would be a bad thing ?

 

[Wallsendmag]

It still makes it less useful.

Why not have the same conditions as other railcards. Are you arguing that that would be a bad thing ?

Which other Railcard would you like the conditions of? Hardly any of them are the same.

 

[yorksrob]

Which other Railcard would you like the conditions of? Hardly any of them are the same.

Being ineligible for most of them, my knowledge of them is limited. However one of the ones without the ridiculous minimum fare would be a start.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When GBR regionalises its organisation, long-established fares zones might well change.
The Network Railcard was invented for NSE, which only exists as a perpetuation of the fares setup of 1993.
The future GBR "Regions" may well not match the old NSE and Regional Railways boundaries.
In particular, a "Birmingham" Region might well disagree that Northampton and Worcester are in the "London" box as they are now.
Local political regional aspirations are more important now (with elected Mayors) than they were when NSE and Regional Railways were invented.

 

[Hadders]

Harmonising railcard benefits and restrictions sounds very attractive but you just know that if harmonisation happened the most restrictive conditions would be implemented across all railcards rather than the least restrictive one.

Would people be happy to see these sort of restrictions on all railcards:

- No railcard discounts before 10am on weekdays
- Minimum discounted fare of £13
- No railcard discount on Advance fares
- Discount not available to anyone not named on the railcard

Be careful what you wish for...

 

[yorksrob]

Harmonising railcard benefits and restrictions sounds very attractive but you just know that if harmonisation happened the most restrictive conditions would be implemented across all railcards rather than the least restrictive one.

Would people be happy to see these sort of restrictions on all railcards:

- No railcard discounts before 10am on weekdays
- Minimum discounted fare of £13
- No railcard discount on Advance fares
- Discount not available to anyone not named on the railcard

Be careful what you wish for...

Those are exactly the sort of things that we don't want.

- there's not really any justification for non availability before 10:00 - railcard passengers would still be paying a peak fare premium with the railcard discount. Also, around here the off-peak begins at 9:30 anyway.

- Minimum discounted fare of £13 - an unjustifiable price gouge.

 

[Hadders]

Those are exactly the sort of things that we don't want.

I agree but we are talking about the railway aided and abetted by RDG/DfT/The Treasury.

To understand the direction of travel when it comes to fares, all you've got to do is look at what nationalised LNER has already done with their inflation busting, more restrictive fares reforms.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree but we are talking about the railway aided and abetted by RDG/DfT/The Treasury.

To understand the direction of travel when it comes to fares, all you've got to do is look at what nationalised LNER has already done with their inflation busting, more restrictive fares reforms.

You're preaching to the converted.

I'm saying that there needs to be a shift in policy.

 

[778]

I agree but we are talking about the railway aided and abetted by RDG/DfT/The Treasury.

To understand the direction of travel when it comes to fares, all you've got to do is look at what nationalised LNER has already done with their inflation busting, more restrictive fares reforms.

I wouldn't be surprised if all railcards are axed except for the senior railcard and the disabled persons railcard.

There has already been speculation about the Network Railcard being done away with.

 

[Hadders]

I wouldn't be surprised if all railcards are axed except for the senior railcard and the disabled persons railcard.

There has already been speculation about the Network Railcard being done away with.

I don’t think that would be politically acceptable, especially for a nationalised organisation.

 

[Mark J]

I don’t think that would be politically acceptable, especially for a nationalised organisation.

I will quite happily (peacefully) protest outside the DfT offIces on Horseferry Rd, if the Network Railcard was planned to be done way with.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Hard to imagine the Network Railcard being done away with. I believe SWT were one of the more vocal proponents amongst the TOCs of getting rid of it around the turn of the century during the earlier years of privatisation - but rather than it being ditched (and there was some campaigning to save it) we instead saw the introduction in 2002 of the minimum weekday fare (plus a change in the child discount).

 

[miklcct]

I wouldn't be surprised if all railcards are axed except for the senior railcard and the disabled persons railcard.

There has already been speculation about the Network Railcard being done away with.

Isn't the Young Person Railcard protected through privatisation, along with the Senior Railcard and Disabled Persons Railcard?

The others, like the Family & Friends, Two Person, 26-30, etc. are commercial offerings which are not protected.

 

[Mikey C]

I find it a bit odd that Worcester is in the Network Railcard area!

But Swindon isn't! Plus you can get to Exeter from Waterloo but not from Paddington.

Just one look at the Network Railcard Map shows how odd the area is, and how it's never been adjusted from NSE days.

https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/clientfiles/files/Map.pdf

 

[Magdalia]

Those are exactly the sort of things that we don't want.

- there's not really any justification for non availability before 10:00 - railcard passengers would still be paying a peak fare premium with the railcard discount. Also, around here the off-peak begins at 9:30 anyway.

- Minimum discounted fare of £13 - an unjustifiable price gouge.

The Network Railcard is a marketing tool and these have always been key parts of the offer. It there to generate a net increase in revenue not to be kind to a specified group of people.

The justification of the morning time restriction is simple, it discourages travel when the trains are full and encourages travel when there is spare capacity. The time boundary is 1000 because the morning peak in London lasts a bit longer than elsewhere. Anyone who thinks that a morning time restriction on the Network Railcard has no justification clearly doesn't have much experience of London commuting.

The minimum fare is there because discounts on small fares are small amounts and not big enough to change behaviour. Small discounts don't generate the extra travel that compensates for the revenue loss on existing sales. Charging £2 instead of £3 doesn't change behaviour, but charging £20 instead of £30 does change behaviour, getting people out of their cars and into the trains.

 

[JonathanH]

The time boundary is 1000 because the morning peak in London lasts a bit longer than elsewhere.

1000 to spread off peak demand, as in it prevents overloading the first off peak train by moving demand to later ones.

Anyone who thinks that a morning time restriction on the Network Railcard has no justification clearly doesn't have much experience of London commuting.

Yes.