Railcard advice from Southeastern

[blakey1152]

Just saw an interesting thread on Twitter where someone has bought a ticket using their Railcard but chose the wrong one at checkout.

Southeastern responded with providing the discount is then same for the Railcard held and the Railcard accidentally picked then the ticket would be ok!

Considering that even if the discount was the same the differing restrictions on each Railcard may potentially make the ticket bought invalid

Was Southeasterns advice on this instance correct? I personally think it was wrong but I'd certainly use the Twitter thread as evidence of what was said if stopped!!!

 

[ainsworth74]

My understanding is that the ticket is technically invalid (and therefore the advice wrong) but as long as you've complied with the relevant conditions of the railcard you actually hold (so for example have obeyed the minimum fare rules that apply to say a 16-25 Railcard) that most staff would likely accept it.

In the case in question I would argue strongly that permission has been granted to travel and therefore there should be no adverse treatment.

 

[westv]

If the Twitter response also said it was valid as long as the railcard conditions were met I can't see it as being wrong. A response to just say the ticket wasn't valid would have made no sense at all.

 

[blakey1152]

This is the official response on Twitter from Southeastern

On your ticket how much percent discount did you get, if it was 34% then ticket would be ok as discount the same if you got more that 34% then you would need to cancel it and rebuy ^g

 

[boiledbeans2]

Once I was buying from the ticket office, asking for a ticket with a 26-30 railcard. I got a 16-25 ticket instead.

Once I noticed it, I asked the same person who sold me the ticket about it. He gave the same response as what was in this thread. Same discount = no problem.

Luckily there were no ticket checks en route.

 

[A Challenge]

Once I was buying from the ticket office, asking for a ticket with a 26-30 railcard. I got a 16-25 ticket instead.

Once I noticed it, I asked the same person who sold me the ticket about it. He gave the same response as what was in this thread. Same discount = no problem.

Luckily there were no ticket checks en route.

That was the official advice for a while when the new Railcard came out anyway, though I'm unsure for how long this continued being the case

 

[Tomp94]

I have been sold tickets from the ticket office with the wrong railcard on it in the past, ie the ticket had a 16 to 25 railcard applied, when it should have been 26 to 30.
I questioned this, the ticket officer said it was fine as the discount was the same

 

[westv]

As someone from the unrailcarded, I just wondered if there's much difference in their terms?

 

[miklcct]

As someone from the unrailcarded, I just wondered if there's much difference in their terms?

The 26-30 card has no summer minimum fare easement and is not valid on Caledonian Sleeper only fares.

 

[Watershed]

As someone from the unrailcarded, I just wondered if there's much difference in their terms?

There are a number of differences in the conditions, in terms of the ability to discount First Class fares or Advance tickets for example - but they all offer a third off walk-up fares in principle.

 

[yorkie]

Just saw an interesting thread on Twitter where someone has bought a ticket using their Railcard but chose the wrong one at checkout.

Southeastern responded with providing the discount is then same for the Railcard held and the Railcard accidentally picked then the ticket would be ok!

Considering that even if the discount was the same the differing restrictions on each Railcard may potentially make the ticket bought invalid

Was Southeasterns advice on this instance correct? I personally think it was wrong but I'd certainly use the Twitter thread as evidence of what was said if stopped!!!

This has been covered by many threads in the past, but yes I agree that Southeastern have in this case given authority to travel, and this is binding.

 

[plugwash]

As someone from the unrailcarded, I just wondered if there's much difference in their terms?

Yes, some are much more restrictive than others, offhand I think disabled is probably the least restrictive and two together the most restrictive.

 

[davews]

I was once sold a disabled instead of senior by the ticket office by mistake. Didn't realise until I glanced at the return one in my pocket several days later. The outward one had already been swallowed by the gateline which obviously didn't object and there were no onboard checks.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Although Southeastern might be deemed to have granted 'authority to travel here', this surely only applies to their own services? They don't have the ability to give this authority for other TOCs: so if the ticket was eg. from Canterbury to Inverness, there are whole range of other TOCs that might still deem the ticket to be invalid....

 

[Class800]

It is likely to constitute permission from an authorised official of the railway and apply to the whole ticket. Whether it would go smoothly in practice is unclear, but in theory.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

It is likely to constitute permission from an authorised official of the railway and apply to the whole ticket. Whether it would go smoothly in practice is unclear, but in theory.

Arguable, I suspect, that the Twitter team are authorised officials... but one wouldn't want to bank on this approach to the problem being taken outside SE! It would make a good 'Misleading Case' though (for anyone other than me than remembers back that far!)

 

[Gonzoiku]

Arguable, I suspect, that the Twitter team are authorised officials... but one wouldn't want to bank on this approach to the problem being taken outside SE! It would make a good 'Misleading Case' though (for anyone other than me than remembers back that far!)

I suppose you could always settle any penalty by cheque written on the side of a cow.

Yes I do remember that far back

GZ

 

[Surreytraveller]

Although Southeastern might be deemed to have granted 'authority to travel here', this surely only applies to their own services? They don't have the ability to give this authority for other TOCs: so if the ticket was eg. from Canterbury to Inverness, there are whole range of other TOCs that might still deem the ticket to be invalid....

If the ticket is valid on other services, then their authorisation is valid on other services

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2022 ==

If the ticket is valid on other services, then their authorisation is valid on other services
Its an integrated railway

 

[Class 466]

A problem that wouldn't exist if we had a sensible railcard system rather than multiple options that offer slightly different things to different groups for no rhyme or reason. Looking as you senior railcard giving better first class discounts just because someone is older!

 

[Hadders]

A problem that wouldn't exist if we had a sensible railcard system rather than multiple options that offer slightly different things to different groups for no rhyme or reason. Looking as you senior railcard giving better first class discounts just because someone is older!

The issue here is that if railcard discounts were harmonised many would end up paying more. Take the 16-25 railcard, one of the reasons it allows a discount at peak times is to offer assistance to people commuting in their early career when they normally aren't earning the same sort of salary compared to what they will earn when they are older.

 

[Class 466]

The issue here is that if railcard discounts were harmonised many would end up paying more. Take the 16-25 railcard, one of the reasons it allows a discount at peak times is to offer assistance to people commuting in their early career when they normally aren't earning the same sort of salary compared to what they will earn when they are older.

So why can’t that be applied across the board? One singular railcard that allows for both discounted peak time tickets and walk up off peak first class travel. I know it’s something I’d use anyway!

 

[yorkie]

So why can’t that be applied across the board? One singular railcard that allows for both discounted peak time tickets and walk up off peak first class travel. I know it’s something I’d use anyway!

Feel free to create a thread with your proposals; you are welcome to link to it from here.

 

[Hadders]

So why can’t that be applied across the board? One singular railcard that allows for both discounted peak time tickets and walk up off peak first class travel. I know it’s something I’d use anyway!

It would be great if it did but it would make some fares too cheap. Take Stevenage to London, a popular commuter flow (even post pandemic):

Anytime Day Return £24.80
7 day season £105.60
Annual Season £4,224 (£19.20 based on 220 journeys a year)

£24.80 is a reasoonable fare given the distance and level of service but it's far too much for a young person at the start of their career. They're unlikely to have the money to afford an annual season ticket either.

Using a 16-25 Railcard allows them to purchase daily tickets for £16.35 which is much more reasonable and gives younger people making the journey a useful discount at a time of life when their wages are generally far lower.

 

[miklcct]

It would be great if it did but it would make some fares too cheap. Take Stevenage to London, a popular commuter flow (even post pandemic):

Anytime Day Return £24.80
7 day season £105.60
Annual Season £4,224 (£19.20 based on 220 journeys a year)

£24.80 is a reasoonable fare given the distance and level of service but it's far too much for a young person at the start of their career. They're unlikely to have the money to afford an annual season ticket either.

Using a 16-25 Railcard allows them to purchase daily tickets for £16.35 which is much more reasonable and gives younger people making the journey a useful discount at a time of life when their wages are generally far lower.

16-25 and 26-30 Railcards have morning peak restrictions (£12 minimum fare) which make them useless for morning peak commuting anyway. If I remember correctly the justification given is to prevent the use of commuting but still allows longer-distance leisure journeys to be made earlier in the day.

 

[blakey1152]

So why can’t that be applied across the board? One singular railcard that allows for both discounted peak time tickets and walk up off peak first class travel. I know it’s something I’d use anyway!

Many years ago the Network Railcard offered the ability to upgrade to First Class for a £3 supplement - bargain if you heading from London down the coast. The only thing was there was no continuity with ticket clerks, some would give you a single £3 First Class supplement ticket to go with your return ticket and others would charge you £6 and give you two tickets - one for each direction.
I seem to recall the tickets themselves were on a black banded ticket stock with the word Supplement on it.

 

[Hadders]

16-25 and 26-30 Railcards have morning peak restrictions (£12 minimum fare) which make them useless for morning peak commuting anyway. If I remember correctly the justification given is to prevent the use of commuting but still allows longer-distance leisure journeys to be made earlier in the day.

The minimum fare doesn’t make the railcards useless for commuting, see my Stevenage example above.

There are plenty of commuting journeys that cost more than £12 after the railcard discount.