Rail strikes discussion

[Kipperthecat]

I hope I am wrong , but it would appear the RMT has walked right into the trap set by the Tories. They have “gamed this out” . They WANT this.

Partygate = distraction
148 disgruntled MP’s = onside
Tory supporters = pleased
Workers rights = attacked
Rail reform = firmly on the table
Passenger outrage = minimal (COVID took our ball away)

Oh , and with the cost of living crisis , it won’t be too long before the pips squeak and we will have to back down. Can anyone really afford to be on strike for 18 days (like in 1994) ?

Shapps yesterday, looked smug (more than usual) , and the Labour MP’s were imploring him to meet with the RMT. His constant response was it is a dispute between Network Rail & RMT. They DON’T want to resolve this, hence (IMO) why the RMT published the letter seeking talks.

We have got a problem, a big problem and this is industry wide. They are gunning for the railways & we need all the firepower we can muster.

My strategy would be call off these strikes (say we want talks , we are thinking about the public … many ways to spin it in our favour) and wait to see what TSSA vote for (from what I’m hearing they will vote for action) , then we may just be able to start on a level playing field.

Sad times for all of us , I really hoped it wouldn’t come to this

 

[Turtle]

I hope I am wrong , but it would appear the RMT has walked right into the trap set by the Tories. They have “gamed this out” . They WANT this.

Partygate = distraction
148 disgruntled MP’s = onside
Tory supporters = pleased
Workers rights = attacked
Rail reform = firmly on the table
Passenger outrage = minimal (COVID took our ball away)

Oh , and with the cost of living crisis , it won’t be too long before the pips squeak and we will have to back down. Can anyone really afford to be on strike for 18 days (like in 1994) ?

Shapps yesterday, looked smug (more than usual) , and the Labour MP’s were imploring him to meet with the RMT. His constant response was it is a dispute between Network Rail & RMT. They DON’T want to resolve this, hence (IMO) why the RMT published the letter seeking talks.

We have got a problem, a big problem and this is industry wide. They are gunning for the railways & we need all the firepower we can muster.

My strategy would be call off these strikes (say we want talks , we are thinking about the public … many ways to spin it in our favour) and wait to see what TSSA vote for (from what I’m hearing they will vote for action) , then we may just be able to start on a level playing field.

Sad times for all of us , I really hoped it wouldn’t come to this

Agreed.
This has been my gut feeling all along.

 

[nedchester]

I hope I am wrong , but it would appear the RMT has walked right into the trap set by the Tories. They have “gamed this out” . They WANT this.

Partygate = distraction
148 disgruntled MP’s = onside
Tory supporters = pleased
Workers rights = attacked
Rail reform = firmly on the table
Passenger outrage = minimal (COVID took our ball away)

Oh , and with the cost of living crisis , it won’t be too long before the pips squeak and we will have to back down. Can anyone really afford to be on strike for 18 days (like in 1994) ?

Shapps yesterday, looked smug (more than usual) , and the Labour MP’s were imploring him to meet with the RMT. His constant response was it is a dispute between Network Rail & RMT. They DON’T want to resolve this, hence (IMO) why the RMT published the letter seeking talks.

We have got a problem, a big problem and this is industry wide. They are gunning for the railways & we need all the firepower we can muster.

My strategy would be call off these strikes (say we want talks , we are thinking about the public … many ways to spin it in our favour) and wait to see what TSSA vote for (from what I’m hearing they will vote for action) , then we may just be able to start on a level playing field.

Sad times for all of us , I really hoped it wouldn’t come to this

100% correct and something I have been saying for a very long time.

That said I have been quite impressed by the RMT both on news media and social media making their case in a mature way (not their normal bluster and bull at a china shop methods) which may help matters.

Reform is needed on the railways going forward (this dispute is not just about pay) and the issues are complex and it's going to take a lot of effort to resolve the various issues. I do fear that the Government is going to sit it out and then try and impose T&Cs in time for the brave new world under GBR in 2024 (just in time for the next GE)

 

[ar10642]

...but what if you'd done forty years with that attitude, not just twenty? I'd be on about £18k in that case! My point is that it's clearly not sustainable for the grade in the medium term.

That would never happen because it would become uncompetitive compared to other similarly skilled roles elsewhere and people would just do those instead. These jobs don't exist in a vacuum, the jobs market is subject to supply and demand.

 

[43066]

Did I make it up? No, this actually comes from talking to my union rep.....

That’s your union in your industry. Based on the way you’ve described it I’m not sure I’d bother joining it either, to be fair.

Three days of strike action in a pay period (six days in total for us) will leave us unable to pay bills. We can survive on a flat month but generally do quite a bit of overtime to be able to enjoy life a bit.

So your financial position is such that you can’t cope with three days less of your basic and need to hammer overtime to enjoy life on a driver’s wage? Don’t you think that might jar a little for your colleagues on £25K?

What were you planning on doing if overtime became unavailable to you, out of interest, and how can you afford *not* to fight a significant real terms pay cut?

I’ve never asked for a payrise in my life, I’m not working differently so I don’t see why I should get one.

Yet then you say this! Something is (literally) not adding up there based on your comments above about struggling on three days less pay.

Pension changes I won’t understand because I’ve never understood pensions so I’ll just shrug at that.

I’m not sure you’re being serious here. If you are, it might be worth reading up on pensions. You’ll find the one you’ve got is better than pretty much anyone else has.

Why do you think that might be?

But of course, for the messroom bullies that just doesn't matter. Anyone who can't manage the financial sacrifice will be a "scab" regardless.

You seem quite the expert on messroom politics. How many railway messrooms have you been into, out of interest?

That was their stance on Brexit.

Why do people keep bringing up Brexit? It’s hardly a surprise remainers think it was a mistake when they didn’t want it to happen in the first place. For the record, as a leave voter, I couldn’t be happier with the way things are, Brexit wise. I’d vote the same way again tomorrow.

It was years ago now and won’t be changing. Time to move on and accept it?

Jeremy Corbyn warned of a bonfire of workers rights if we left, and it sickened me knowing he was right, and yet there was no reasoning.

You do realise good old Jezza was in favour of Brexit himself?

 

[35B]

If the Union position is that they will not accept anything less than a carve-out from the general public sector pay settlement (the 2% with flex for efficiency savings) then it's pretty obvious that only Ministerial direction can resolve the dispute. However, it may well be that there is a settlement available within this. I don't know.

If that were the position, it would also mean that the unions are teeing themselves up for a position where the government is always going to avoid being drawn when it can distance itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==

But if it was actually allowed to do so on a purely commercial basis, a lot of small, unprofitable stations and services would be removed, which is only a good thing if you look at the railway purely from a business perspective. If you want it to still be there to provide a public service, and to adapt into something that might tempt people out of their cars, then that's no good.

Possibly. Which is part of the justification for subsidies to avoid those consequences. However, the (necessary) subsuming of these subsidies into block grants since the Barbara Castle era has left those links broken, and one wonders whether some of the more extreme examples might be better value (financial, environmental, service) provided by personalised taxis than the current units.

 

[Tomnick]

That would never happen because it would become uncompetitive compared to other similarly skilled roles elsewhere and people would just do those instead. These jobs don't exist in a vacuum, the jobs market is subject to supply and demand.

Well, yes, quite. In turn, average wages will go up something like in line with inflation in the long term. They have to. That's my point, really - you, or your role, just can't not have a pay rise for years and years on end.

 

[ar10642]

Well, yes, quite. In turn, average wages will go up something like in line with inflation in the long term. They have to. That's my point, really - you, or your role, just can't not have a pay rise for years and years on end.

The government should be giving all public sector employees some kind of pay rise. They probably can't just do whatever inflation is at this point otherwise it would make inflation higher and we'd get into the wage/price spiral again, but they need to offer something. However I just don't think prolonged strike showdowns with the government aimed at causing maximum disruption for passengers is the way to go when passenger numbers are only just recovering, for all the reasons that have already been outlined. It's a shame there doesn't appear to be a more civil way to get these discussions done.

 

[Butts]

This is why I despair. You forget that you are being taxed more now than at any time in history. Who is taxing you this fine amount. The Tories.
This is one of the many reason why I am reluctant to strike, just so well paid drivers can benefit from my income loss. If you love the Tories so much, get onto your ASLEF branch reps and get them to push for a strike ballot. Don't expect cleaners, despatch, and conductors who are earning 50% or less of what you earn to take the fight on your behalf.

Do the "also rans" resent the amount drivers are paid as that's what seems to be coming across - so much for solidarity.

Why don't the Unions push for a fixed cash amount so the lowest earners will benefit the most ?

 

[Cowley]

All of the service related threads are in the allocations and diagram section now.
The index is here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/master-strike-timetable-thread-list.233121/

 

[exbrel]

Is this strike NOT about pay alone, it is also about job losses ? Is it the media saying this is purely a pay rise strike, and is that also the opinioniof many here too i

i'm now just an outsider looking in, so as a passenger, if you get a 10% rise, the job losses will inevitably come, so asking for that sort of figure and no redundancies, really cancel each other out. Plus you run the great risk of losing the public support...

 

[thelongestroad]

Interested to see who can wave their willy hardest in the pay talks today.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not sure if anyone else has actually posted the letter that the RMT sent to Shapps that's been spoken about on the thread previously but its worth a read if you haven't. It's a very different tone to other communications. Far more professional and now sounds like someone who is taking this seriously and willing to work to find a solution rather than the more, in my view, unprofessionally and down right cringe worthy style that has previously been used by the RMT in their communications. I'm not sure whether this style is more typical for them in their dealings with parties to disputes and the other style is just for external consumption but either way, more of this!

15 June 2022

RMT Press Office:

Rail union RMT has called for a face-to-face meeting with Transport Secretary Grant Shapps and Chancellor Rishi Sunak to avert strike action on the rail network next week.

The railways will be shut down for 3 days on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, when workers from Network Rail and 13 train operating companies take to picket lines across the country in a row over pay and job losses.

In a letter to Grant Shapps, RMT general secretary Mick Lynch says it has become clear that the Treasury is "calling the shots" and is not allowing rail employers to reach a negotiated settlement with the union.

Mr Lynch writes: "I am writing to seek an urgent meeting with the government, without any pre-conditions, to discuss the national rail disputes prior to the planned strike action next week and I would be grateful if this could be arranged without delay. As you will be aware both this year and last year, meetings have taken place under the Rail Industry Recovery Group (RIRG).

"...it has become obvious in our discussions with employers since the RMT ballot result that the government is retaining control over the conduct of negotiations with the RMT, and the Treasury in particular is calling the shots."

"In effect in recent weeks the union has been negotiating with the government, but the government have not been in the room.

"I am now therefore calling for a meeting with you and the Chancellor Rishi Sunak. I also note the government have decided to have a parliamentary debate on the dispute today. So, as well as speaking at the despatch box about the dispute, I hope you will be able to speak to me directly about resolving the dispute."

RMT calls for face to face meeting with Shapps

Rail union RMT has called for a face-to-face meeting with Transport Secretary Grant Shapps and Chancellor Rishi Sunak to avert strike action on the rail network next week.

www.rmt.org.uk

Transcript of letter for those using screen readers, etc:

Dear Grant,

RMT Rail Industrial Dispute

I am writing to seek an urgent meeting with the government, without any pre-conditions, to discuss the national rail disputes prior to the planned strike action next week and I would be grateful if this could be arranged without delay.

As you will be aware both this year and last year, meetings have taken place under the Rail Industry Recovery Group (RIRG). At some of these meetings Government Ministers have been present for discussions relating to rail workforce reform, jobs, pay and working conditions. Of course, as you know, the RIRG was established by Ministers.

Furthermore, it has become obvious in our discussions with employers since the RMT ballot result that the government is retaining control over the conduct of negotiations with the RMT, and the Treasury in particular is calling the shots.

In effect in recent weeks the Union has been negotiating with the government but the government has not been in the room. I am now therefore calling for a meeting with you and the Chancellor Rishi Sunak.

I also note the government have decided to have a parliamentary debate on the dispute today. So, as well as speaking at the despatch box about the dispute, I hope you will be able to speak to me directly about resolving the dispute.

Yours sincerely,

Michael Lynch
General Secretary

 

[320320]

No, but then I would be living to that wage instead of my current wage. Whereas strikes seem a good way to take us back down. As I did when I started as a driver and my salary was pretty much that.

In all seriousness, if your financial predicament is so precarious that you’re reliant on lots of rest day working in order to “enjoy life a bit”, I would suggest you take a serious look at your financial commitments.

Inflation is rapidly eroding the value of your current take home pay and as you “dont want a pay rise“ it will only get worse with the increasing interest rates that will see you, eventually, paying more towards your mortgage.

Fuel prices are continuing to rise with no sign of slowing and home energy bills are at the highest price any of us have ever seen and are going to increase by another 30-35% in October.

Continuing with no pay rise will likely see you having to rely on rest day work just to pay the bills.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Appearing slightly more professional does not mean it is any way believable. A meeting without any pre-conditions? So the RMT are quite happy to discuss and accept no pay rise, amended work practices and redundancies?

 

[baz962]

Appearing slightly more professional does not mean it is any way believable. A meeting without any pre-conditions? So the RMT are quite happy to discuss and accept no pay rise, amended work practices and redundancies?

I would say that the interpretation of this by people is wrong. I would say that just the meeting has no pre conditions , as in the two sides meet without say Shapps only agreeing to meet if the strike is called off. So the strike is still on if they meet and both sides talk and the strike is called off if there is some sort of progress.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would say that the interpretation of this by people is wrong. I would say that just the meeting has no pre conditions , as in the two sides meet without say Shapps only agreeing to meet if the strike is called off. So the strike is still on if they meet and both sides talk and the strike is called off if there is some sort of progress.

Agreed. That's clearly just meaning "let's get in the room together and talk" rather than saying "we'll only meet if you agree to x before hand" where x could be "call the strike off" or "that there will be no job losses". It's a positive sign as far as I'm concerned from one half of the dispute. Of course I have no expectation that the Government will actually do anything as they seem quite happy for the dispute to carry on.

 

[mandub]

Also I suspect you shouldn't need to worry too much aboI strongly suspect drivers will vote no to strikes....

Not at Northern they won't. It'll be 80%+ in favour of strike action when Aslef ballot us later this month.

 

[Kipperthecat]

RMT call for face to face meeting = talk to the hand (Network Rail ) because the face (Government) ain’t listening .

Beep,beep,beep the RMT is reversing !

 

[Mintona]

So your financial position is such that you can’t cope with three days less of your basic and need to hammer overtime to enjoy life on a driver’s wage? Don’t you think that might jar a little for your colleagues on £25K?

As I said, it’d be six days for us as we both work for the railway. Three days could probably just about managed if my partner did something else and was still being paid in full. I appreciate we are not the only ones in this situation. I don’t ‘hammer’ overtime, I tend to just do Sundays, both booked and extra where I can, with the very occasional rest day (think I’ve done 7 this year so about one a month). My colleagues on £25k probably live to their means, as does pretty much everyone, right?

What were you planning on doing if overtime became unavailable to you, out of interest, and how can you afford *not* to fight a significant real terms pay cut?

I don’t rely on overtime to live so it wouldn’t make a huge amount of difference. But losing overtime + striking will.

Yet then you say this! Something is (literally) not adding up there based on your comments above about struggling on three days less pay.

I just don’t understand this great railway fascination with having a huge payrise every year. It doesn’t happen in other industries and makes us look greedy. I’d much rather have job security than a payrise right now, because it is my belief that fire and rehire is coming to the railway, and in a big way.

I’m not sure you’re being serious here. If you are, it might be worth reading up on pensions. You’ll find the one you’ve got is better than pretty much anyone else has.

Why do you think that might be?

I’ve just never understood pensions particularly. I’ve always worked for the railway so don’t have any experience of non railway pensions so can’t really comment. I’ve tried reading up on them and it goes over my head. Remember I’m just a thick uneducated train driver.

In all seriousness, if your financial predicament is so precarious that you’re reliant on lots of rest day working in order to “enjoy life a bit”, I would suggest you take a serious look at your financial commitments.

Inflation is rapidly eroding the value of your current take home pay and as you “dont want a pay rise“ it will only get worse with the increasing interest rates that will see you, eventually, paying more towards your mortgage.

Fuel prices are continuing to rise with no sign of slowing and home energy bills are at the highest price any of us have ever seen and are going to increase by another 30-35% in October.

Continuing with no pay rise will likely see you having to rely on rest day work just to pay the bills.

It’s not ‘so precarious’ but it’s getting there. I don’t do lots of rest day work though, just the odd day here and there. I’m just hoping that inflation will slow down on its own soon.

 

[dk1]

Not at Northern they won't. It'll be 80%+ in favour of strike action when Aslef ballot us later this month.

It was 95.9% in favour here.

 

[muz379]

Also I suspect you shouldn't need to worry too much about a driver strike happening as our grade is more and more afflicted by Boris loving Tory types more worried about the few hundred refugees entering the country per year than worrying about the man on the streets wages or plight. I strongly suspect drivers will vote no to strikes....

plenty of tory voting drivers where I am who also like their money , so may well actually be in favour of strike action to get a pay increase

 

[Kite159]

This is why I despair. You forget that you are being taxed more now than at any time in history. Who is taxing you this fine amount. The Tories.
This is one of the many reason why I am reluctant to strike, just so well paid drivers can benefit from my income loss. If you love the Tories so much, get onto your ASLEF branch reps and get them to push for a strike ballot. Don't expect cleaners, despatch, and conductors who are earning 50% or less of what you earn to take the fight on your behalf.

Yet from next month (?) the National Insurance threshold gets raised so those on low incomes will pay less than what they did before the April rise.

I'm not sure if anyone else has actually posted the letter that the RMT sent to Shapps that's been spoken about on the thread previously but its worth a read if you haven't. It's a very different tone to other communications. Far more professional and now sounds like someone who is taking this seriously and willing to work to find a solution rather than the more, in my view, unprofessionally and down right cringe worthy style that has previously been used by the RMT in their communications. I'm not sure whether this style is more typical for them in their dealings with parties to disputes and the other style is just for external consumption but either way, more of this!
:

The same letter they didn't proofread to see that it said 2021 instead of 2022 at the top?

Sounds like the big wigs at the top of the RMT has finally had some PR training.

It seems a shame that for many railway jobs the only Union option is the RMT, if someone wanted the 'insurance' of being part of the Union. They don't have the option of picking another Union whose aim isn't the overthrow of Capitalism.

------

As someone mentioned in an earlier post, the RMT are walking straight into a large trap set by Johnson. He will probably do something after the strike to gain support from his MPs and maybe the public who lost money from the strikes (i.e those who can't drive which need to use the trains to get to work which can't be done from home).

 

[Starmill]

I’ve just never understood pensions particularly. I’ve always worked for the railway so don’t have any experience of non railway pensions so can’t really comment. I’ve tried reading up on them and it goes over my head. Remember I’m just a thick uneducated train driver.

I'm sure you're not thick at all and it's just that it's complex area of personal finance. Pensions is probably the most complex area the average person deals with. For this reason it's usually really recommended to pay for some personal financial advice as you approach retirement. It's not necccesary for most people in early or mid career though.

There are two important types of pension to understand. The first is a kind of pension that works a little bit like a savings account which you and your employer pay into, inside a wrapper that prevents you from accessing it before a minimum age, but also gives it tax free status, within limits. This is called a defined contribution pension, because what you do with it at retirement is up to you based on how much you saved over your working life.

The second is a kind of pension scheme where you pay to build up years of contributions and your employer pools these contributions and invests them for you. You have no control over what they're invested in, but your employer (or rather their trustees) will manage the assets in order to pay out when you retire. Critically they will pay a fixed amount out per year when you've retired, calculated based on how long you were contributing, and usually uprate this in line with inflation. Obviously there's an awful lot more to it than this but these are known as defined benefit schemes because it is not particularly relevant what you paid in, you're actually buying entitlement to yearly pay from the scheme when you retire. There are multiple different ways to calculate the retirement pay and one that used to be common was 'final salary'. This is why these are sometimes referred to as final salary pensions even if they're no longer calculated based on your salary in your last year of work, but on a career average salary.

In years gone by, the latter type were more common. However, they've been a dying breed for decades, because they can require employers to make payments of potentially hundreds of millions of pounds in order to cover any shortfalls in the scheme if the investments do not perform as well as expected. As a result they are now mostly only found in limited public sector occupations.

 

[Moonshot]

Yet from next month (?) the National Insurance threshold gets raised so those on low incomes will pay less than what they did before the April rise.



The same letter they didn't proofread to see that it said 2021 instead of 2022 at the top?

Sounds like the big wigs at the top of the RMT has finally had some PR training.

It seems a shame that for many railway jobs the only Union option is the RMT, if someone wanted the 'insurance' of being part of the Union. They don't have the option of picking another Union whose aim isn't the overthrow of Capitalism.

------

As someone mentioned in an earlier post, the RMT are walking straight into a large trap set by Johnson. He will probably do something after the strike to gain support from his MPs and maybe the public who lost money from the strikes (i.e those who can't drive which need to use the trains to get to work which can't be done from home).

Overthrow of capitalism.......which is ironic considering that RMT union themselves own significant shareholdings ......from which dividends help with the running costs of RMT

 

[windingroad]

Overthrow of capitalism.......which is ironic considering that RMT union themselves own significant shareholdings ......from which dividends help with the running costs of RMT

You believe the inescapable economic system we live in should be changed, and yet you participate in that inescapable economic system. Curious!

 

[Tomnick]

The government should be giving all public sector employees some kind of pay rise. They probably can't just do whatever inflation is at this point otherwise it would make inflation higher and we'd get into the wage/price spiral again, but they need to offer something.

Indeed, on both counts. No-one that I've spoken to realistically expects the 7%, 8%, upwards of 10% that keeps being thrown around, even though that's where inflation is. Pretty much everyone would settle for 5%.

However I just don't think prolonged strike showdowns with the government aimed at causing maximum disruption for passengers is the way to go when passenger numbers are only just recovering, for all the reasons that have already been outlined. It's a shame there doesn't appear to be a more civil way to get these discussions done.

I don't think any of us want that. I certainly don't. Let's not forget Peter Wilkinson's comment, though, in the context of railway workers taking strike action that he doesn't think we can afford to sustain for long - "I want to push them into that place". And here we are.

 

[Moonshot]

You believe the inescapable economic system we live in should be changed, and yet you participate in that inescapable economic system. Curious!

I haven't a clue what that means......

 

[windingroad]

I haven't a clue what that means......

I was being sarcastic and (uncharitably, I admit) paraphrasing the implied argument of your post. The point I'm making is that it is impossible not to participate in capitalism, so it's silly to criticise anti-capitalists for doing so. It's the same argument Louise Mensch made on HIGNFY and was rightly criticised for.

I'm not necessarily against capitalism, for the record. I just dislike the reflexive way some people leap to undermine or dismiss any criticism of it, or view any alternative as inherently sinister.

 

[LAX54]

i'm now just an outsider looking in, so as a passenger, if you get a 10% rise, the job losses will inevitably come, so asking for that sort of figure and no redundancies, really cancel each other out. Plus you run the great risk of losing the public support...

What they ask for, and what they accept are two different things ! they may well accept 6% or even 4% no one is expecting 10%, most people are more concerned with job cuts, as should the travelling public. (that is for the NR side of the disputes, TOC's are in a different argument) you also have to remember this is the first NR strike for 30+ years, so something major has impacted the staff.