Rail strikes discussion

[AlterEgo]

I'm not sure about that. The local buses round my way are on strike currently, and they're not renowned for the high proportion of ABC1's they carry.

Well yes that's quite different!

 

[Towers]

As a scumbag as yorkie and co said....I still stand behind what I said. People who come in to work during a strike will be branded scabs. I won't break one regardless of money loss. Those that do will get the scab moniker that will follow them from depot to depot.
Moan and whinge as much as you want...its how it will be

Yes, you said

As is so often the case in these situations, this sort of arrogant nonsense is spouted by some who, presumably, won't be worrying about how they'll pay their mortgage or bills or feed their young families. Those who have the luxury of being able to comfortably afford to give up a few days pay every month or so all summer will belittle those who aren't fortunate enough to share the same personal circumstances. And the dinosaurs wonder why some newer colleagues have so little interest in unions and their politics!

 

[ungreat]

Yes, you said

As is so often the case in these situations, this sort of arrogant nonsense is spouted by some who, presumably, won't be worrying about how they'll pay their mortgage or bills or feed their young families. Those who have the luxury of being able to comfortably afford to give up a few days pay every month or so all summer will belittle those who aren't fortunate enough to share the same personal circumstances. And the dinosaurs wonder why some newer colleagues have so little interest in unions and their politics!

I'll be worrying chap
But I wont be scabbing

 

[Gems]

I'll be worrying chap
But I wont be scabbing

Nurse! NURSE!!!!

 

[Towers]

I'll be worrying chap
But I wont be scabbing

How long for, if this grinds on for months? A serious question. Will you take out a loan, use savings etc?

 

[ungreat]

And if thats what they resort to to cover jobs...

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How long for, if this grinds on for months? A serious question. Will you take out a loan, use savings etc?

Nope
Live on a flat month with much left.
You?

 

[py_megapixel]

How do you work out a monetary value of a full-time job?

I don't know. All I'm saying is that it should be enough to live reasonably comfortably on, and that "you already get some money, why do you need any more?" is a bad way of looking at it.

Why should employee A from one TOC get a different salary from employee B from another TOC with both doing exactly the same job?

I don't think my post had much to do with the salary differences between TOCs. In any case, comparing them like that seems a little meaningless - after all, employee A might be paid less but get more flexibility in their days off, or something like that.

 

[ungreat]

Nurse! NURSE!!!!

Is that for you? I agree with you on many,many posts but union membership is a must on the railways.

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How long for, if this grinds on for months? A serious question. Will you take out a loan, use savings etc?

Nope
Live on a flat month with much left.
You?

 

[dk1]

BBC News continually saying the government are leaving it up to the employers to sort the dispute with the unions. Well if that was the case we’d get this thing sorted in no time. Unfortunately it appears to be DfT interference stumbling any meaningful talks.

 

[Gems]

Is that for you? I agree with you on many,many posts but union membership is a must on the railways.

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Nope
Live on a flat month with much left.
You?

Think you need to go lay down mate. You'll give yourself a heart attack.

 

[urbophile]

Which means to me it should not be insulated from job cuts and pay freezes

It means to me that the organisation should run efficiently. That means among other things ensuring that its employees receive fair pay for fair work. Not exploiting them and not cutting staff numbers below those needed to run the service.

 

[ungreat]

Dft are controlling any wage increases

 

[Towers]

And if thats what they resort to to cover jobs...

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Nope
Live on a flat month with much left.
You?

A flat month with three days pay missing?

Again, I'm afraid it's depressingly obvious in these situations that some folk simply cannot grasp that some of their colleagues will find repeatedly forgoing sizeable chunks of their pay rather more than just a bit of an inconvenience. And for what? 5%, maybe, after months of striking that have already cost a fortune? Try to look beyond the end of your nose!

 

[dk1]

How long for, if this grinds on for months? A serious question. Will you take out a loan, use savings etc?

Personally I might save/invest less than I always do each month but as someone who does little or no overtime apart from rostered Sundays, that’s always an option. You never know but I might even be better off

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2022 ==

Dft are controlling any wage increases

Which is where the media seem deluded by governmental spin tonight.

 

[Towers]

Personally I might save/invest less than I always do each month but as someone who does little or no overtime apart from rostered Sundays, that’s always an option. You never know but I might even be better off

And that is a rather nice situation to be in!

 

[Lancy99]

A flat month with three days pay missing?

Again, I'm afraid it's depressingly obvious in these situations that some folk simply cannot grasp that some of their colleagues will find repeatedly forgoing sizeable chunks of their pay rather more than just a bit of an inconvenience. And for what? 5%, maybe, after months of striking that have already cost a fortune? Try to look beyond the end of your nose!

So what do you suggest happens. Just give up and plod on?

 

[ungreat]

A flat month with three days pay missing?

Again, I'm afraid it's depressingly obvious in these situations that some folk simply cannot grasp that some of their colleagues will find repeatedly forgoing sizeable chunks of their pay rather more than just a bit of an inconvenience. And for what? 5%, maybe, after months of striking that have already cost a fortune? Try to look beyond the end of your nose!

ASLEF aint on strike for the 500th time...

 

[dk1]

And that is a rather nice situation to be in!

It’s been planned over many many years. Always been taught to speculate to accumulate & save for a rainy day. Comes naturally to me.

 

[Towers]

ASLEF aint on strike for the 500th time...

Not sure what point you're making?

 

[dk1]

ASLEF aint on strike for the 500th time...

But we are next Thursday at my TOC.

 

[Need2]

Just out of interest, in recent years (say 25 years) has any industry workforce ever striked and gained more than they lost by striking?
When I worked for BT in the 80’s we were on strike for about 3-4 weeks and from my bad memory only gained about another 1%.

Edit: just checked, we were all out for 2 solid weeks so lost 2 weeks pay, and the gain was …… 2.75% extra over 2 years!
Are strikes ever financially worth it?

 

[matacaster]

The problem with jobs on the railway or many public sector jobs is they're highly specialised and there is only 1 employer (TOCs now are government) hence the need for unions. I'm in IT and therefore have an open market for my skills, don't like the terms offered by 1 employer then I move to another, train drivers do not in the same way.

The only issue with unionized model is it relies on both sides being reasonable and reaching agreement. In this case, I think the pay rises should be tied to performance, i.e. profitability increases or subsidy reductions like in private industries.

Also I thought unions were there to support those who cannot afford to strike, solidarity anyone?

Broadly agree, but you are saying effectively the government is the one employer and tocs are just proxies. There are two unions who each represent different groups who can play at negotiating in turn, trying to outdo the other. This then gives unions an advantage. Its far harder if the govt washes its hands and tells tocs to sort it out.
Note that some drivers still have the option to join a FOC with likely better terms as they are not government funded.

 

[mandub]

Just out of interest, in recent years (say 25 years) has any industry workforce ever striked and gained more than they lost by striking?
When I worked for BT in the 80’s we were on strike for about 3-4 weeks and from my bad memory only gained about another 1%.

Edit: just checked, we were all out for 2 solid weeks so lost 2 weeks pay, and the gain was …… 2.75% extra over 2 years!
Are strikes ever financially worth it?

A pay rise is forever, the higher salary is also reflected in the final pension.
Suppose if you've only a few years left you may calculate striking will cost you more than you gain. But for the majority the annual extra earnings and pension of a potential pay rise are worth it.

Whether the DfT will actually allow any straight pay award here is another matter.

 

[HST274]

How much would the average worker lose off three days strike? And is it deducted from a monthly pay and how is this determined? Pay per annum / 365? Stupid question/s maybe but I was just interested.

 

[2021_Signaller]

BBC News continually saying the government are leaving it up to the employers to sort the dispute with the unions. Well if that was the case we’d get this thing sorted in no time. Unfortunately it appears to be DfT interference stumbling any meaningful talks.

Actually if that is the line from Government it probably means they're ready to fold. They don't want to be seen carrying the bag for a Union win. They want to be able to say, it was the TOCs & NR that made the deal, not us. However, as we all know it is always the government that signs off on these things.

 

[matacaster]

How do you work out a monetary value of a full-time job? Why should employee A from one TOC get a different salary from employee B from another TOC with both doing exactly the same job?

Perhaps one toc finds it harder to recruit suitable staff and retain them as wages are typically higher in some areas than others. Eg cost of living in South East is much higher than say Oldham, so salaries in many businesses will tend to be higher in South East. On the other hand, they might have to pay extra to get anyone to come to Oldham.

 

[SynthD]

The problem with jobs on the railway or many public sector jobs is they're highly specialised and there is only 1 employer (TOCs now are government) hence the need for unions. I'm in IT and therefore have an open market for my skills.

This doesn’t sound right. The public sector has IT jobs. The given problem does not exist.

 

[footprints]

Actually if that is the line from Government it probably means they're ready to fold. They don't want to be seen carrying the bag for a Union win. They want to be able to say, it was the TOCs & NR that made the deal, not us. However, as we all know it is always the government that signs off on these things.

Or, more likely, the Government don't want to take the blame for a protracted dispute.

 

[LordSarnoc]

Personally I think this is a ruse. A few strikes like this will hurt everyone’s pockets and eventually the government will take the opportunity to make good on its manifesto promise regarding the rail unions.

As a result, when it really matters (when GBR is created at some point in the next two years) the unions will have had their fangs drawn to some extent, and the opportunity for a fire and rehire policy will have been created.

 

[Economist]

When this current government was elected, it was blatantly obvious that they wanted to pick a battle with rail unions. I thought the battle would be over DOO/DCO but ultimately it's come down to pay/T&C's/job security.

In the past two and a half years, I should think most staff, barring a personal crisis like a divorce/bereavement/illness should have been able to save more than enough to cover the loss of a few days pay. I've been saving ever since I started as a trainee.

As someone in the driving grade, what really gets on my wick is drivers (mainly younger ones in my age group) blow their income on vanity/lifestyle products and complain they can't afford to strike or even take part in a rest day ban.

The government's position is an ideological one, they have a track record of profligate financial waste:
£5bn on COVID loan fraud.
£16bn on COVID loan defaults.
£11bn because the chancellor couldn't be bothered to fix the interest rate on our national debt.
20% of COVID procurement contracts have red flags for alleged corruption.

I've got around 35 years left before I can claim a full railway pension. Loads of other professions have been shafted over the past three decades or so because their ranks failed to organise against degradation of their conditions of employment. I don't want some of the last well-paid working-class trades which offer genuine social mobility to become the latest in a long line of careers which offer vastly reduced circumstances to the next generation.