Rail station with wrong county name: should they be renamed?

[hkstudent]

With local authorities boundary changing over time, there seems some stations bearing county name seems not accurate.

Take an example of Hayes in Bromley, it's still named as Hayes (Kent). The area has long been incorporated into the local governance and ceremonial county of Greater London, which is not relevant to Kent any more.

It's pretty much the case of Sutton named as Sutton (Lodnon) not Sutton (Surrey) or Stratford (London) not Stratford (Essex), which both are also incorporated into Greater London in 1965 as Bromley do.

Should they be renamed to reflect more accurate and updated situation?

 

[zwk500]

Should they be renamed to reflect more accurate and updated situation?

In short, no if they are still clear what they mean. Kent, Surrey and Middlesex are still referred to in a number of situations in London as geographical references despite the countries having shifted out of Greater London ages ago. The purpose of including a suffix is to distinguish the station, so as long as everybody knows the (Kent) station is the one in South-east London, nothing need be done.

 

[Gloster]

With local authorities boundary changing over time, there seems some stations bearing county name seems not accurate.

Take an example of Hayes in Bromley, it's still named as Hayes (Kent). The area has long been incorporated into the local governance and ceremonial county of Greater London, which is not relevant to Kent any more.

It's pretty much the case of Sutton named as Sutton (Lodnon) not Sutton (Surrey) or Stratford (London) not Stratford (Essex), which both are also incorporated into Greater London in 1965 as Bromley do.

Should they be renamed to reflect more accurate and updated situation?

There is also a Hayes in West London.

 

[Doppelganger]

The Ashford in Surrey is still referred to as Ashford, Middlesex.

It's interesting as Middlesex doesn't exist in any capacity really as a county. I guess they do still have a cricket team though...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

There is also a Hayes in West London.

The train station is Hayes and Harrington though, so I guess that differentiates it enough.

 

[43096]

The train station is Hayes and Harrington though, so I guess that differentiates it enough.

Hayes & Harlington

 

[Islineclear3_1]

With local authorities boundary changing over time, there seems some stations bearing county name seems not accurate.

Take an example of Hayes in Bromley, it's still named as Hayes (Kent). The area has long been incorporated into the local governance and ceremonial county of Greater London, which is not relevant to Kent any more.

It's pretty much the case of Sutton named as Sutton (Lodnon) not Sutton (Surrey) or Stratford (London) not Stratford (Essex), which both are also incorporated into Greater London in 1965 as Bromley do.

Should they be renamed to reflect more accurate and updated situation?

The train station is Hayes and Harrington though, so I guess that differentiates it enough.

They were in the "right" county when built/opened. Why change; this would only cause more confusion

Also, it's Hayes & Harlington station - guess this was a typo

 

[yorksrob]

As long as the description still differentiates it from the other station, keep it (Bromley used to be in Kent as well, don't'y'know)

 

[JonathanH]

The Ashford in Surrey is still referred to as Ashford, Middlesex.

I don't think that is universal - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:AFS?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt says Ashford (Surrey), as does https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/at-the-station/ashford-surrey. At one point it was known as Ashford (G.L.C.)

Station details
Station name Ashford ( Surrey )
CRS code AFS
Station operator SW
National Location Code 5667

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think that is universal - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:AFS?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt says Ashford (Surrey), as does https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/at-the-station/ashford-surrey. At one point it was known as Ashford (G.L.C.)

It’s just plain Ashford on the station signage as well. Not actually a good example of “wrong naming” nowadays…

 

[zwk500]

It’s just plain Ashford on the station signage as well. Not actually a good example of “wrong naming” nowadays…

It does help that the other Ashford got it's own suffix that was (until Covid) beyond dispute.

 

[London Trains]

With local authorities boundary changing over time, there seems some stations bearing county name seems not accurate.

Take an example of Hayes in Bromley, it's still named as Hayes (Kent). The area has long been incorporated into the local governance and ceremonial county of Greater London, which is not relevant to Kent any more.

It's pretty much the case of Sutton named as Sutton (Lodnon) not Sutton (Surrey) or Stratford (London) not Stratford (Essex), which both are also incorporated into Greater London in 1965 as Bromley do.

Should they be renamed to reflect more accurate and updated situation?

Sutton only changed to Sutton (London) a few years ago, it was known as Sutton (Surrey) for more than 50 years after the formation of Greater London.

Hayes is a different case to Sutton or Ashford, since both stations called Hayes are within Greater London. Maybe Hayes (Bromley) would be more appropriate?

 

[snowball]

deleted - someone else said it first

 

[stuving]

With local authorities boundary changing over time, there seems some stations bearing county name seems not accurate.

Are local authorities important in telling stations apart? For one thing, they keep getting their boundaries (and sometime names) changed, which inevitably causes confusion and ambiguity when used for other purposes.

When the GLC was created, the postal addresses of the outer parts mostly kept their old county names (The inner parts had central London postal areas already.) So Ashford was still in Middlesex, Sutton in Surrey, etc. The Post office stopped asking for counties in addresses a bit after 1996, but most people didn't notice immediately since they were never asked to stop using them.

So those old counties (and that includes Middlesex, which had no other official existence from 1965) are still familiar to a lot of people. That includes people who live there - who still put it in their address, and people who live miles away - who have no reason to know anything about local government boundaries.

 

[TrenHotel]

Greater London has a few duplicates, but I doubt there'll be much confusion between Hayes, the relatively sleepy Southeastern Metro terminal just south of Bromley, and Hayes & Harlington, the Elizabeth Line stop that's handy for Heathrow trains and is having a while load of development being built around it. Ditto Abbey Road, the DLR stop in a beaten-up spot between Stratford and West Ham which shares a name with a street and recording studio in a plush corner of St John's Wood, the other side of town. You'd have to be exceptionally unlucky to confuse the two.

It's fortunate, I guess, that there's no station in Grove Park (south of Chiswick) to be confused with Grove Park, a fairly significant Southeastern Metro stop close to the Lewisham-Bromley borough border, or the tube station name Plaistow (between West Ham and East Ham) is not repeated in the area of the same name that is served by Sundridge Park station, the next stop on from Grove Park on the Bromley North branch.

And, of course, Bromley was on the tube map until 1967 but renamed Bromley-by-Bow to avoid confusion with the suburb south of the river.

 

[Gaelan]

You'd have to be exceptionally unlucky to confuse the two.

At least in the past, TfL had signage up at the DLR station to help confused tourists who'd made exactly this mistake:

So presumably it's not uncommon as you think!

 

[TrenHotel]

At least in the past, TfL had signage up at the DLR station to help confused tourists who'd made exactly this mistake:

So presumably it's not uncommon as you think!

Those have been up since the day it opened.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Greater London has a few duplicates, but I doubt there'll be much confusion between Hayes, the relatively sleepy Southeastern Metro terminal just south of Bromley, and Hayes & Harlington, the Elizabeth Line stop that's handy for Heathrow trains and is having a while load of development being built around it. Ditto Abbey Road, the DLR stop in a beaten-up spot between Stratford and West Ham which shares a name with a street and recording studio in a plush corner of St John's Wood, the other side of town. You'd have to be exceptionally unlucky to confuse the two.

It's fortunate, I guess, that there's no station in Grove Park (south of Chiswick) to be confused with Grove Park, a fairly significant Southeastern Metro stop close to the Lewisham-Bromley borough border, or the tube station name Plaistow (between West Ham and East Ham) is not repeated in the area of the same name that is served by Sundridge Park station, the next stop on from Grove Park on the Bromley North branch.

And, of course, Bromley was on the tube map until 1967 but renamed Bromley-by-Bow to avoid confusion with the suburb south of the river.

I imagine it would be very easy for someone from the other end of the country who isn't a railway nerd to get the Hayes-es mixed up. Visiting family in West London who live in an area called Hayes and say they'll meet you at the nearby train station, if you look on a ticket machine and there are two stations called "Hayes" and "Hayes & Harlington" you might well opt for the one that's an exact match to the area name you know!

Of course there's no guarantee that this hypothetical traveller will know the West London Hayes isn't in Kent (in my experience as a young person, most young people don't have a strong mental map of UK counties!) but at least a lot of people will know the difference. Also, listing neither option as straight "Hayes" means people who don't know their counties are much more likely to try and work out which station they actually want.

 

[Basil Jet]

Sutton only changed to Sutton (London) a few years ago, it was known as Sutton (Surrey) for more than 50 years after the formation of Greater London.

There's an old rhyme..

"Sutton for good mutton;
Cheam for juicy beef;
Croydon for a pretty girl
And Mitcham for a thief."

I'd love to see a station nameboard that said

"Sutton (for good mutton)"

 

[Mikey C]

I once had to help a lost driver going down Borough High Street towards Kennington, as he was actually trying to get to Kensington

 

[hkstudent]

I imagine it would be very easy for someone from the other end of the country who isn't a railway nerd to get the Hayes-es mixed up. Visiting family in West London who live in an area called Hayes and say they'll meet you at the nearby train station, if you look on a ticket machine and there are two stations called "Hayes" and "Hayes & Harlington" you might well opt for the one that's an exact match to the area name you know!

Of course there's no guarantee that this hypothetical traveller will know the West London Hayes isn't in Kent (in my experience as a young person, most young people don't have a strong mental map of UK counties!) but at least a lot of people will know the difference. Also, listing neither option as straight "Hayes" means people who don't know their counties are much more likely to try and work out which station they actually want.

That’s the same case applies for Hayes in Bromley. Since Hayes is not in Kent anymore, it is possible that the passenger is scared by the suffix of Kent which is miles away from London and opted for H&H instead.

 

[leytongabriel]

I think this is generational. Middx was abolished as a postal area (eg for Enfield, Greenford, Ashford) a long time ago and I doubt it means anything to younger people. But despite the GLC / GLA people in Romford and Bromley don't seem to say they live in London as a first response - it's the old county that comes up.

 

[zwk500]

That’s the same case applies for Hayes in Bromley. Since Hayes is not in Kent anymore, it is possible that the passenger is scared by the suffix of Kent which is miles away from London and opted for H&H instead.

The incidence of this happening will be vanishingly small.

 

[Henffordd]

In this neck of the woods, a number of business owners have stories of waiting at Hereford station, and getting irritated phone calls from customers who set off from Kings Cross instead of Paddington, complaining that there is no one to meet them.... Definitely wrong county.

 

[geoffk]

This doesn't seem to happen in Metropolitan areas. For example, Moreton on the Merseyrail system is referred to in NRE as Moreton (Merseyside), not (Cheshire), to distinguish it from Moreton (Dorset) or indeed Moreton-in-Marsh. Likewise Earlswood (West Midlands).

 

[Dai Corner]

One station which has been renamed as a result of local Government reorganisation is Garth (Bridgend) which was previously called Garth (Mid Glamorgan).

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Slightly OT here, not surprising some residents of Bromley, Sutton, Kingston & Romford etc feel closer to their old county - the 30-ish year old relief road in Bromley Town centre is called the Kentish Way, built 30-ish years after Bromley became a London borough.

I feel the Greater London annexation should not have happened in 1965, the outer boroughs should have been left with their old counties, with only the inner boroughs officially recognised as "London". Other places such as Watford, Dartford & Staines, also inside the M25, are not even in London.

Outer London residents are finding out to their cost at being forced into the unpopular ULEZ extension, which Watford etc residents will avoid, as their towns got sucked into the swamp from 1965.

 

[NSE]

If the current name still has relevance and stuck, I don’t see the issue. Sutton (Surrey) or Sutton (London) both make sense. Hayes is a bit different as there are two, but Hayes (West London) is served by ‘Hayes *& Harlington*’ station so as long as railway staff use that and the PIS reflects it that should help. Of course, Harlington is also a station only one change away.

But as this forum shows, whatever the choice someone is going to come along on their pedantic horse and point out ‘the legal boundaries of Sutton as a town are different to the London Borough or Sutton so really it should be Sutton (London Borough of Sutton (London, Previously Surrey)) or some equally other pedantic name (a totally made up example but you get my point).

With Hayes, I’d probably say adding ‘Bromley’ would not be my choice as people might think you could use it for Bromley Town Centre. I’d say anything like ‘Kent’, ‘South London’, ‘SE’ or anything to that effect would be suitable.

 

[Basil Jet]

I think this is generational. Middx was abolished as a postal area (eg for Enfield, Greenford, Ashford) a long time ago and I doubt it means anything to younger people.

Signs marking the boundary of historic Middlesex have been placed long after the abolition of the council, for instance here

 

[W-on-Sea]

Middlesex still has a cricket club! Not sure I'd describe Hayes, Middlesex, as "West London" in any case: it's just a bit too far west for that. Greater London, yes. London London, not really.

I recently saw a letter in a national newspaper signed from someone who described himself as being in "Upminster, Greater London", which I thought very odd. I've spent a lot of time with people from there, and got the impression that the principal loyalty remained to the historic county, not the new one. The local authority were even contemplating renaming themslelves "The London Borough of Havering, Essex" not long ago....

Basically a lot of the boundaries and the identities that go with them are fluid. I'd not describe the pre-existing descriptions as "wrong", merely not fitting with current administrative boundaries

 

[30907]

This doesn't seem to happen in Metropolitan areas. For example, Moreton on the Merseyrail system is referred to in NRE as Moreton (Merseyside), not (Cheshire), to distinguish it from Moreton (Dorset) or indeed Moreton-in-Marsh. Likewise Earlswood (West Midlands).

AFAIK there is only one Moreton in each county concerned.