Rail Rover Refund

[shotayo]

Good Morning,

This is my first post, so forgive me if this topic has been covered elsewhere.

I recently bought a 4 day in 8 Freedom North West Rover from WBQ. Due to a change in circumstances I was unable to use the Rover.

I have applied at WBQ in person for a refund and was initial informed that no refund was applicable on rover tickets. I persisted and eventually, a refund form has filled out by the retail staff.

As i reside in Dublin, the UK address used for the refund is a friends. A letter was received yesterday (not on headed paper stamped Virgin Trains Customer Service Warrington) stating two contradictory things, 1 that rover refunds are not allowed; 2 that a review of the CCTV on the day i bought the rover ticket shows me boarding a train, thus I am to provide the ticket on which I travelled on before they will proceed with the refund procedure.

Firstly, I did in fact board 1114 train to GLC and was traveling on a Rail Sail ticket, which was surrender on my return to Holyhead Port.

Secondly, how do I escalate this matter further as I do not want to go through the Chargeback route with my bank.

Any suggestion would be appreciated

 

[transportphoto]

Refunds on rovers are certainly possible, I have done it in the past! Also, having just checked NRE (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr0a8889c35ce74100b70b85ba4af335/details.html) it quite clearly states:

Full refund on unused tickets returned before the start date shown on them.

So therefore I do not even expect an admin charge to be applicable!

Did you buy the rover ticket in advance of the start date?


Please also see my post below.

 

[yorkie]

If you asked before the rover was due to start, I would expect a refund minus a 10 pound admin fee.

If you asked after the rover finished then I would expect no refund whatsoever.

If you asked during validity then it's perhaps less certain.

I am not surprised Virgin are reluctant to issue a refund as the potential for misuse is huge, and I wouldn't expect a refund to be issued. What reason do you have for requesting a refund? It would be a different matter if you discovered there were delays and then immediately went to the ticket office to get a refund.

 

[transportphoto]

As there has now been a reply I won't continue to edit my above post.

The NRE site is supposedly the

definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland.

However this is one of the many where the NRE site contradicts itself, as I quoted above, the information page for the FONW 4\8 says that a full refund will only be given before the start date shown on them. However, the NRCoC, which as stated on the reverse of your ticket 'travel is subject to' says:

(b) if paragraph (a) does not apply and the ticket has been bought from a Train
Company’s ticket office (or a self-service machine) and you return your ticket at
any Train Company’s ticket office no later than 28 days after the expiry of the
ticket’s validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below); or

Notes:
(i) The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made
of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.
(ii) In the case of a refund made under (b), (c), or (d) above, you may have to pay a
reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10).
(iii) Your right to receive a refund of all or part of the price paid may be restricted
in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, for example,
those with an advance purchase requirement. These rights are set out in the
notices and other publications of the relevant Train Companies.
(iv) In the case of a refund under (b), (c), or (d) above, you will not receive an
immediate refund but your refund application will be processed as soon as
reasonably practicable.
(v) In the case of an Electronic Ticket, the refund process may require you to allow
the person making the refund to delete the stored ticket data or to demonstrate to
that person that you have done so in accordance with the conditions of that ticket.

The NRCoC suggests that a full refund (minus a admin fee not exceeding £10) should be available for all unused tickets presented for refund at any companies office within 28 days.

----

I therefore conclude with some questions:

On surrender for refund, were any of the date boxes filled in?

Can you contact Holyhead Port for CCTV footage of you surrendering the ticket you used for travel immediately after buying the rover?


HTH,

TP

 

[barrykas]

The Manual has the following to say regarding refunds on Rovers:

Refunds are not generally allowed on Rail Rover tickets unless they are returned before the start date shown on them.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Good Morning,

This is my first post, so forgive me if this topic has been covered elsewhere.

I recently bought a 4 day in 8 Freedom North West Rover from WBQ. Due to a change in circumstances I was unable to use the Rover.

I have applied at WBQ in person for a refund and was initial informed that no refund was applicable on rover tickets. I persisted and eventually, a refund form has filled out by the retail staff.

As i reside in Dublin, the UK address used for the refund is a friends. A letter was received yesterday (not on headed paper stamped Virgin Trains Customer Service Warrington) stating two contradictory things, 1 that rover refunds are not allowed; 2 that a review of the CCTV on the day i bought the rover ticket shows me boarding a train, thus I am to provide the ticket on which I travelled on before they will proceed with the refund procedure.

Firstly, I did in fact board 1114 train to GLC and was traveling on a Rail Sail ticket, which was surrender on my return to Holyhead Port.

Secondly, how do I escalate this matter further as I do not want to go through the Chargeback route with my bank.

Any suggestion would be appreciated

I'm quite astonished that Virgin Trains would have gone to the effort of reviewing CCTV before writing this letter, given that they could have just said that refunds are not permitted!

Asking you for the ticket on which you travelled is unreasonable given that in such a large proportion of journeys the ticket will have been surrendered upon arrival at the destination.

 

[All Line Rover]

ATOC told me that once a 7 Day or 14 Day All Line Rover has started, no refund can be issued - even if you fall ill - because the full value of a Rover ticket can be used in the first few days.

That's why I've only bought a 7 Day ALR, because I'm worried about falling ill on a 14 Day one!

 

[shotayo]

Thank you all very much, 1 further question - which takes precedent the National Fare Manual or the National Rail Conditions of Carriage?


Just for clarification, the FONW ticket was not used, but the application for a refund was made within 28 days.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Thank you all very much, 1 further question - which takes precedent the National Fare Manual or the National Rail Conditions of Carriage?....

The NRCoC allows the NFM to take precedence.

(iii) Your right to receive a refund of all or part of the price paid may be restricted
in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, for example,
those with an advance purchase requirement. These rights are set out in the
notices and other publications of the relevant Train Companies.

In other words, if the ticket (the rover) has a condition that does not allow refunds (not after the start of the ticket validity) then it is not allowed.

 

[rail-britain]

A letter was received yesterday (not on headed paper stamped Virgin Trains Customer Service Warrington) stating two contradictory things, 1 that rover refunds are not allowed; 2 that a review of the CCTV on the day i bought the rover ticket shows me boarding a train, thus I am to provide the ticket on which I travelled on before they will proceed with the refund procedure

The CCTV footage will simply show you approaching the customer service desk (including purchase of a ticket if appropriate) and/or boarding a train
It does not prove what type of ticket was used on the train, and they could only do this by confirming with the Train Managers en-route as to what type of ticket was presented
Do you have the original receipt / payment method on statement (for the RailSail ticket)?
Did you obtain seat reservations (for the RailSail ticket)?
If you did, then send copies of the above and a copy of the receipt for the rover ticket

You have to understand this from Virgin Trains point of view, it looks like you purchased a rover, travelled by train, and then are trying to obtain a refund
Hence why I always recommend obtaining a receipt for all tickets purchased, which can be retained once the journey is completed in the event the tickets end up being retained / collected at the end of the journey

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately no refund is due on the ticket, as per the NRCoC:

(iii) Your right to receive a refund of all or part of the price paid may be restricted in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, for example, those with an advance purchase requirement. These rights are set out in the notices and other publications of the relevant Train Companies.

A rail rover or ranger is a discounted ticket by its nature.

The terms and conditions of the ticket state that no refund is due.

 

[tony_mac]

A rail rover or ranger is a discounted ticket by its nature.

I disagree, they usually cost more than a single journey would; you could use exactly the same argument about return tickets or season tickets.

The terms and conditions of the ticket state that no refund is due.

No they don't, although it is implied. They actually say nothing at all about refunds after the start date. (Or I haven't seen any public conditions that say it).

 

[AlterEgo]

I disagree, they usually cost more than a single journey would; you could use exactly the same argument about return tickets or season tickets.

They are all heavily discounted based on the passenger's need - otherwise passengers wouldn't buy them.

It is a ticket which offers somebody to make more rail journeys than buying walk-up fares for their travel plans.

Advance tickets are also discounted tickets.

 

[tony_mac]

They are all heavily discounted based on the passenger's need - otherwise passengers wouldn't buy them.

They may or may not be, exactly the same as return tickets.

I've bought rovers before and not used them for more than the cost of the journeys I made, but I don't like to buy a new ticket before deciding where to go next.

I don't know if they are supposed to be discounted tickets or not. I suspect not, but either way I think this 'proof' is bogus.

 

[AlterEgo]

An All Line Rover is a heavily discounted ticket given the rights it entitles customers to. If I buy an ALR and use it on one journey, that doesn't negate the fact that it offers a significant discount.

If I buy an Advance and choose not to use it, it's still a discounted ticket!

In any case, no refund would be due owing to the attached Terms and Conditions.

 

[yorkie]

There are many areas where I am prepared to fight for customers' rights. But this isn't one of them. I would not expect a refund for a Rover, and it's still not clear when the OP asked for a refund. If after expiry then it would be ludicrous (IMO) even asking. If asked for on the first day then perhaps you may hope for discretion and a partial refund. As we do not know, I can't really judge how reasonable the request is.

But I am not at all surprised the answer was "no".

 

[tony_mac]

It's a 4 in 8 day with no boxes filled-in, so it hasn't been used.

Other unused tickets can be refunded after their expiry dates, can't they?

 

[AlterEgo]

It's a 4 in 8 day with no boxes filled-in, so it hasn't been used.

Other unused tickets can be refunded after their expiry dates, can't they?

That is beside the point, although I understand where you're coming from.

Just because a box hasn't been filled in doesn't mean it hasn't been used. Unused tickets such as Off-Peak and Anytime tickets can be refunded less the applicable administration fee.

However, not all ticket types are refundable; this is often a reflection of the price paid for the ticket. A SDS costing £9.90 is, from the customer's perspective, not refundable if the refunding TOC charges £10 to do it!

Advance tickets aren't refundable even if fully unused, and some of those cost well over a hundred pounds. Should they be refundable?

Unfortunately when entering into a contract there may be terms onerous to one party or the other. The NRCoC is a good example of a document which, taken literally, is in some places weighted heavily in the customer's favour, and in some places heavily towards the TOC.

 

[rail-britain]

From what I can work out, for the refund of a Rover
It needs to be surrendered at least the day before it is due to commence and is subject to a £10 admin fee
Once the ticket becomes valid then no refund is offered

ScotRail accept refunds for such tickets
They can be submitted at any station on the day prior to commencement or sent by post (but they must be received before the ticket commences)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I disagree, they usually cost more than a single journey would; you could use exactly the same argument about return tickets or season tickets....

So, by your logic an Annual Season ticket (which for those who don't know, is valid for an entire year) is not a discounted ticket because it costs more than a single ticket, even though a single ticket for each working day over that year (taking into account 20 days holiday entitlement and bank holidays) might just be an even amount, and that isn't even a fair comparison of value (singles being valid for one journey each, season tickets being valid all day every day).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Just because a box hasn't been filled in doesn't mean it hasn't been used. .

Indeed. When I come across Flexi Rovers on trains 8 times out of 10 a date box has not been filled in prior to travel. Most people seem shocked to be asked to show the boxes and even more shocked to be asked to fill one in.

It is also fairly common to catch people using them out of the area of validity as well, most of whom claim " Oh I didn't realise, when I brought it at the ticket office they said it would be ok to go to X, Y and Z"

 

[tony_mac]

That is beside the point, although I understand where you're coming from.

Just because a box hasn't been filled in doesn't mean it hasn't been used. Unused tickets such as Off-Peak and Anytime tickets can be refunded less the applicable administration fee.

If the date box hasn't been filled in, and it was used, then the ticket was never valid and hasn't been inspected (properly!).

So, I can't see the argument that an unfilled rover ticket is really any different to an unstamped off-peak ticket. If an off-peak ticket was used, but not inspected properly then that could be refunded.

Although, in reality, I do realise that most guards don't bother to check the date boxes - but if you spend 4 days on a FONW you are likely to find kwvr45 at least once


But, I imagine that getting a refund would be just about impossible, even without the additional complication of boarding a train immediately after buying it. It does seem a bit odd to buy a rover just before leaving the country on a rail-sail ticket, and I can understand why they would want some more proof of this. (what about reservations, credit card receipts?)

 

[323235]

Indeed. When I come across Flexi Rovers on trains 8 times out of 10 a date box has not been filled in prior to travel. Most people seem shocked to be asked to show the boxes and even more shocked to be asked to fill one in.

It is also fairly common to catch people using them out of the area of validity as well, most of whom claim " Oh I didn't realise, when I brought it at the ticket office they said it would be ok to go to X, Y and Z"

I had my last Freedom of the South West date boxes checked twice in Three days. The previous one which was an 8 in 15 got checked nil times in the 7 days I used it.

On my Heart of England 2 years ago, The London Midland RPI's who boarded the train didn't even know what it was. 5 of them towered over me then one of them managed to convince the others it was valid, although the other four weren't very convinced. In the end they moved on. This was on a 323 iirc between Smethwick G.B. and Birmingham.