Rail replacement rights

[jetsetwilly]

Thanks,

Yes there is no way to get my original train. It was just about getting to Peterborough as early as possible. Looks like I'll have to take the original journey with the hefty delays and they get my money back for the 2 hour delay. I wouldn't bother, not so much fun for the young un

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Thanks

In all honesty, will probably have to just take the purchased version then claim the money back.

 

[Watershed]

Greater Anglia say I might be able to go via London (I have to speak to a manager), but LNER are clear that I can't use my ticket on the London to Peterborough leg of my journey.

Unless they can point to the bit of your ticket that says "not via London" (hint - they won't be able to), you're perfectly entitled to travel that way if that's the next available itinerary that goes via Peterborough and includes LNER.

Unfortunately, I looked at the detail in BRFares for the cheapest tier of Advances, which reads as below, hence my comments - however, other tiers have different wording, which covers TL.

These are electronic data restrictions. They are not communicated to the customer when booking or even once the ticket has been issued, and are therefore neither relevant nor binding. As with electronic time restriction data, they solely exist to prevent booking engines from issuing Advances involving travel on 'unwanted' TOCs.

 

[Starmill]

I can't believe I don't have the right to travel on any suitable train given that they can't honour my original booking.

If you want to change the time of your journey to depart earlier, you usually must pay a fee to do so.

If the railway company wants to change the time to make you depart earlier, they don't need to pay you anything.

That's exactly the way they like it!

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What would happen if I just got on the earlier train and refused to buy another ticket?

Then you would be travelling without a valid ticket and could be reported for prosecution which would succeed in this case.

This does not make sense. Surely if the OP departed earlier from the origin they'd simply be travelling in accordance with the normal conditions of the ticket i.e. the booked train from Peterborough to Leeds and connecting trains or rail replacement services as required? So there should be no charge much less any prosecution?

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Greater Anglia say I might be able to go via London (I have to speak to a manager), but LNER are clear that I can't use my ticket on the London to Peterborough leg of my journey.

This really isn't for them to decide.

The only things you must abide by are:

• Begin your rail journey at the nominated time
• Travel via Peterborough
• Use at least one LNER service

That's it. However, LNER may well try their hardest to be obstructive, as their emails to you seem to imply. That'd be up to them.

 

[Darandio]

This does not make sense. Surely if the OP departed earlier from the origin they'd simply be travelling in accordance with the normal conditions of the ticket i.e. the booked train from Peterborough to Leeds and connecting trains or rail replacement services as required? So there should be no charge much less any prosecution?

Even on an advance ticket?

 

[Starmill]

Even on an advance ticket?

Yes if a train has been cancelled.

 

[Haywain]

The only things you must abide by are:

• Begin your rail journey at the nominated time

I think the problem here is that the OP wants to start their journey earlier than the nominated time. I'm still not clear on where on the original journey the replacement bus is happening.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Unless they can point to the bit of your ticket that says "not via London" (hint - they won't be able to), you're perfectly entitled to travel that way if that's the next available itinerary that goes via Peterborough and includes LNER.


These are electronic data restrictions. They are not communicated to the customer when booking or even once the ticket has been issued, and are therefore neither relevant nor binding. As with electronic time restriction data, they solely exist to prevent booking engines from issuing Advances involving travel on 'unwanted' TOCs.

Peterborough and LNER isn't valid via KGX

 

[Starmill]

Peterborough and LNER isn't valid via KGX

Says who? The ticket says you must travel via Peterborough and you must use an LNER service.

I think what you mean is that a ticket with this route wouldn't normally be issued for travel via London. However you wouldn't normally issue a ticket and then cancel the train either.

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I think the problem here is that the OP wants to start their journey earlier than the nominated time. I'm still not clear on where on the original journey the replacement bus is happening.

I admit to being somewhat confused on that latter point, yes. And on the former I'm also not certain exactly what the OP wants most because they have suggested that they might not be able to make a much earlier departure because their event may not be finished.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Says who? The ticket says you must travel via Peterborough and you must use an LNER service.

I think what you mean is that a ticket with this route wouldn't normally be issued for travel via London. However you wouldn't normally issue a ticket and then cancel the train either.

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I admit to being somewhat confused on that latter point, yes. And on the former I'm also not certain exactly what the OP wants most because they have suggested that they might not be able to make a much earlier departure because their event may not be finished.

It's whats used for East Anglia not London instead of 00430 LNER & Connections which is valid via London. I'm well aware of what I mean, eTicket are available on Peterborough and LNER which is the giveaway that it's not valid via London

 

[Watershed]

Peterborough and LNER isn't valid via KGX

If LNER wished that to be the case, they would need to change the route to something like "LNER not via London".

It's whats used for East Anglia not London instead of 00430 LNER & Connections which is valid via London.

I'm sure that Joe Public is well acquainted with the difference between these two route codes...

I'm well aware of what I mean, eTicket are available on Peterborough and LNER which is the giveaway that it's not valid via London

Ah yes, customers should be telepathically aware of the fact that their ticket isn't intended for use via London, because e-tickets are never sold for such journeys... except when they are!

With respect, I don't think that any of this particularly helps the OP out of their predicament.

As much as LNER and/or GA may want the OP to shell out for a new Advance (which now just so happens to cost several times more than they originally paid), the OP is entitled to travel via London if that is the next available connection.

 

[Starmill]

It's whats used for East Anglia not London instead of 00430 LNER & Connections which is valid via London.

I'm well aware of that actually. But as the customer doesn't have a ticket route +LNER & Connect I don't see how that's relevant.

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eTicket are available on Peterborough and LNER which is the giveaway that it's not valid via London

Again this is wrong. There have been plenty of cases of tickets valid via London issued as eTickets or PRT. Whether they ought have been or not is another matter, but they were quite valid regardless.

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If LNER wished that to be the case, they would need to change the route to something like "LNER not via London".

Indeed. GWR have AP Not London tickets and Reading Not London tickets available fairly widely for example.

 

[CrispyUK]

I'm still not clear on where on the original journey the replacement bus is happening.

Trainline is offering me the following Ipswich to Leeds journey departing at 17:58 on 11th Sep which is presumably what the OP is now facing:

17:58 Ipswich
18:58 Ely
Greater Anglia train to Ely

19:24 Ely
20:34 Peterborough
Rail replacement bus

20:48 Peterborough
22:02 York
LNER train to Newcastle

22:19 York
22:58 Leeds
Northern train to Blackburn

Looking at the same journey on the following weekend gives me the below itinerary which I’m guessing is what the OP originally booked for 11th Sep before the timetable changed with bustitution between Ely and Peterborough:

17:58 Ipswich
19:40 Peterborough
Greater Anglia train to Peterborough

19:51 Peterborough
21:16 Leeds
LNER train to Leeds

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm well aware of that actually. But as the customer doesn't have a ticket route +LNER & Connect I don't see how that's relevant.

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Again this is wrong. There have been plenty of cases of tickets valid via London issued as eTickets or PRT. Whether they ought have been or not is another matter, but they were quite valid regardless.

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Indeed. GWR have AP Not London tickets and Reading Not London tickets available fairly widely for example.

Sorry but try again when you have your facts correct !! There are two Advance routes Leeds to Ipswich one is valid to cross London one isn't just as I said in a previous post.

 

[Watershed]

Sorry but try again when you have your facts correct !! There are two Advance routes Leeds to Ipswich one is valid to cross London one isn't just as I said in a previous post.

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That is an electronic data field (not visible to the customer FWIW) which determines whether or not a ticket will be issued with a Maltese cross.

The presence or absence of a Maltese cross bears no relevance to whether a ticket is valid via London. Step 6 of Section A of the Routeing Guide refers:

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the fares data will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

Again, it comes down to the fact that neither "PETERBORO & LNER", nor the expanded text I quoted above, states that the ticket is not valid via London. If LNER want this intention to become a term of the contract, they would need to change the route of the Advance, just as GWR and other TOCs have done for equivalent situations.

 

[island]

Whilst LNER may not have intended for the ticket in question to be valid via London, unless it has clearly made this a term of the contract with the customer, its intent is irrelevant.

 

[Starmill]

Sorry but try again when you have your facts correct !! There are two Advance routes Leeds to Ipswich one is valid to cross London one isn't just as I said in a previous post.

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Yes, I know very well that LNER use two different route codes for these flows. However as I've already explained that the customer has the former and their service is cancelled, therefore nothing precludes travelling via London if that's the only way they can make their journey, as long as they also travel via Peterborough and use LNER. The only meaningful difference is that one ticket has a cross London marker and the other does not.

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Whilst LNER may not have intended for the ticket in question to be valid via London, unless it has clearly made this a term of the contract with the customer, its intent is irrelevant.

Indeed. Route 'AP Peterborough not London' would have been well open to them to choose for the ticket the OP has. As they didn't choose that it's not a part of the contract.

 

[Haywain]

All the argument about what the route means and where it is valid is, largely, an irrelevance. As an Advance ticket is issued for travel on specific trains the route is of little importance in most circumstances. When a variation to the routeing is granted it is usually because of disruption that makes travel by an alternative route unavoidable. However, the that is not the OP's situation.

The journey is to be disrupted by an alteration to the Greater Anglia service and if the OP travels in accordance with the itinerary for which the ticket was purchased, they will be claiming Delay Repay from GA. IT appears that the OP has queried using an alternative route with GA and they have stated that they would allow this. However, in this situation I believe that the OP should then be asking GA to make the necessary arrangements with LNER for acceptance of the ticket on a suitable alternative LNER service - this is undoubtedly something that GA have the ability to do. But it is important to remember that the situation here is not that the OP will be stranded and unable to complete the booked journey but that the booked journey will arrive at Leeds later than the OP would like, so this does not really fit the normal definition of disruption. I also note the reason for the OP's journey and the joint and, on this occasion, conflicting requirements of departure time from Ipswich (realistically no earlier than 17:15) and arrival time at Leeds create their own difficulty. As stated, I believe the OP needs to discuss this in more detail with Greater Anglia and it is for them to provide further assistance.

 

[jetsetwilly]

Yes this was my original booking and the new version.

Latest is that LNER have said that I 'probably' can use it on the Stevanage to Leeds service but would have to ask the conductor. Clearly that is no use to me as they might say no, then I'm stuck with a big ticket price.

I am going to call GA and discuss with them as their Twitter helpers say they have no authority to make such changes

 

[Watershed]

All the argument about what the route means and where it is valid is, largely, an irrelevance. As an Advance ticket is issued for travel on specific trains the route is of little importance in most circumstances. When a variation to the routeing is granted it is usually because of disruption that makes travel by an alternative route unavoidable. However, the that is not the OP's situation.

The journey is to be disrupted by an alteration to the Greater Anglia service and if the OP travels in accordance with the itinerary for which the ticket was purchased, they will be claiming Delay Repay from GA. IT appears that the OP has queried using an alternative route with GA and they have stated that they would allow this. However, in this situation I believe that the OP should then be asking GA to make the necessary arrangements with LNER for acceptance of the ticket on a suitable alternative LNER service - this is undoubtedly something that GA have the ability to do. But it is important to remember that the situation here is not that the OP will be stranded and unable to complete the booked journey but that the booked journey will arrive at Leeds later than the OP would like, so this does not really fit the normal definition of disruption. I also note the reason for the OP's journey and the joint and, on this occasion, conflicting requirements of departure time from Ipswich (realistically no earlier than 17:15) and arrival time at Leeds create their own difficulty. As stated, I believe the OP needs to discuss this in more detail with Greater Anglia and it is for them to provide further assistance.

The fact that OP may now go via London is a red herring, I agree. Their ticket in no way prevents them from doing so; rerouting via London is no different to rerouting via Cambridge and Stevenage, for example.

OP's train to Peterborough has been partially cancelled - even if it is a "planned" cancellation, it is still cancelled as far as the OP is concerned (because it was scheduled to run through when they booked). This will cause disruption to OP's journey no matter what they do.

It may be that, due to this cancellation, OP's next non-overtaken itinerary to Leeds happens to cross London. They do not need to request acceptance of any sort to do so - any more than they'd need to request acceptance to travel on a later LNER service if they proceed to Ely and then take the replacement bus.

Of course, OP may get an outcome that suits them better if they do ask for acceptance and are, for example, given permission to start their journey earlier than booked. But they are under no obligation to do so, and if they are refused permission this doesn't affect their rights as above.

 

[jetsetwilly]

Spoke to GA. They say that because I booked with Northern Rail app, they can't help. They think it would be fine to use the service to London or Stevanage but they need Northern to confirm. I spoke to Northern and they said it is nothing to do with them as it is not their train

A can't imagine any other country has such a shambolic system

I think I will just get on the train and refuse to pay for a new ticket and challenge

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Update - Northern say its fine, but needs approval from the 3 train operators of the new route (Greater ANglia, Thamelink and LNER)

 

[30907]

Yes this was my original booking and the new version.

Latest is that LNER have said that I 'probably' can use it on the Stevanage to Leeds service but would have to ask the conductor. Clearly that is no use to me as they might say no, then I'm stuck with a big ticket price.

It is extremely unlikely that a conductor would say no - though rumour has it that there is one such! - but provided you have your credit card, all you will have is a subsequent discussion with LNER about refunding said price.

Spoke to GA. They say that because I booked with Northern Rail app, they can't help. They think it would be fine to use the service to London or Stevanage but they need Northern to confirm. I spoke to Northern and they said it is nothing to do with them as it is not their train

Understandable! GA are talking rubbish

 

[jetsetwilly]

Finally got all 3 ops to accept my alternative route with a twitter message from each to confirm. What a pain.

Thanks for all of the helpful comments

 

[Super Hans]

As the train has altered the timetable, and you have booked the ticket before the alteration,
you are also eligible to claim a delay repay of the ticket, which is 100% compensation of the ticket, which would likely cover the TPE train cost to Stalybridge + taxi cost from the station to your home.

DR doesn't cover taxi fare and you can only claim it if you travel and are delayed. If you decide not to travel and claim DR, that is fraud.

 

[30907]

Finally got all 3 ops to accept my alternative route with a twitter message from each to confirm. What a pain.

Thanks for all of the helpful comments

Excellent result, shame it has taken so much effort.
BTW via London or via Cambridge and Stevenage?

 

[jetsetwilly]

Cambridge and Stevenage. Actually better as it avoids Tube fares. Just need to find time to get food on route

 

[Hadders]

Sainsbury's Local opposite the entrance to Cambridge station.

 

[alistairlees]

I have to say, there are some extraordinarily customer-unfriendly suggestions from both posters on this thread and the TOCs themselves. Any rational business would be delighted to have a customer, and would be seeking to retain their future business. Not so here, it seems, other than begrudgingly. No wonder people choose to drive.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have to say, there are some extraordinarily customer-unfriendly suggestions from both posters on this thread and the TOCs themselves. Any rational business would be delighted to have a customer, and would be seeking to retain their future business. Not so here, it seems, other than begrudgingly. No wonder people choose to drive.

It does seem a bit mad. When I used to work in customer relations I'd have just issued an Authority to Travel on my own TOC's service, job done. Phone call to the customer to say "ah right, yes, rules are this....can see this puts you in a spot of bother...on this occasion we'll work around it, here's your ATT, hope you have a good trip". It also takes five minutes to speak to another TOC when you work in customer relations to see if they'll agree to the same. Diary note at the end of the day to call the customer back and make sure they have everything.

People in the industry do love to make things much more complicated than they really are.