Rail replacement buses vs. longer train journeys - choices by passengers in engineering works

[Kite159]

With Manchester Piccadilly closed the TPEs won't be of much relevance other than as a short distance connection Carlisle-Edinburgh. The through Avantis were certainly busy though.

Or connecting at Preston from a fast London - Glasgow Pendo considering TPE run in the hours Avanti don't run to Edinburgh. Even if Manchester was open, those services would probably change at Preston (owing to Preston - Euston via Warrington being a lot faster than Preston - Manchester - London). Certainly when I went via the WCML in the start of November when the ECML was closed at York, the Pendo from Glasgow got extremely busy at Preston to the point I decided to bail at Warrington.

 

[Martin_1981]

My parents years ago back in 2008 returning from Cornwall to Leicester, the line between Gloucester and Birmingham was closed. My dad refused to do that trip by replacement bus again after his experience a couple of years earlier (replacement bus was a few mins late arriving at Gloucester, Plymouth train which the bus was meant to meet never waited so he had to wait an hour for the next train). So to avoid the replacement bus, they did St Erth to Reading, Reading to Birmingham then Birmingham to Leicester. A long round about way but I think I would rather that instead of a replacement bus.

Years ago, Birmingham to Bristol and West Country trains used to divert via Leamington, Oxford and Swindon when the usual route via Cheltenham was closed. I did Birmingham to Exeter on a diverted York to Plymouth Class 47 hauled XC service which went this way in 2002. Took about an hour longer than usual but still a direct train from Birmingham to Exeter. I know the odd train has been diverted this way in the last couple of years on an unscheduled diversion. Pity they can't use this route for scheduled diversions but I guess it's all down to capacity and route knowledge.

 

[Starmill]

Surely for London to Edinburgh, the fastest option on Sunday would have been via the WCML*, however the eye watering expensive flexible fare between London & Edinburgh are routed "Via York" (although no such route restriction applies to the former terminus of Edinburgh Crossrail, which also has the super off-peak fares available so a double win)

There's an Avanti only fare too.

 

[Kite159]

There's an Avanti only fare too.

Which is still more than the fare to the former terminus of Edinburgh Crossrail and other stations outside the 'simpler fare" pilot

 

[Twingo37175]

How would anyone other than, say, platform staff at Peterborough know this to be the case?

I returned from London on Saturday to Doncaster, but used Liverpool Street. The forums ticket site had the cheapest option, priced ironically with EMR as we were on a Norwich service out of Ely. The LNER train could easily have covered all passengers in a single carriage for the numbers boarding. Probably more joining at Doncaster than already on the train.

 

[Starmill]

Which is still more than the fare to the former terminus of Edinburgh Crossrail and other stations outside the 'simpler fare" pilot

Yes, just from the perspective of the post you were replying to, which was what the trainline app etc would offer.

 

[Magdalia]

BBC News has an article on rail replacement bus services here:

Rail replacement buses continue through March on London lines

Travelling by train at weekends often means getting a rail replacement bus – and more are coming.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rail users travelling between the East of England and London on a weekend know all about the dreaded rail replacement bus – and there are more on the way. But why is this and what do passengers think?

For travellers in the region, getting to and from the capital at the weekend often means four wheels rather than two rails.

For decades, the rail replacement bus has been an inescapable fact of life as work takes place to improve the lines.

Since 2023, major engineering work for the new Beaulieu Park station has been a frequent cause of disruption.

During January and February, engineering work, external between Witham in Essex and London has caused weekend delays.

And there will be no let-up in March, with maintenance work set to take place that will involve the closure of London Liverpool Street for five days and disruptions on Greater Anglia services, external.

This is one of those BBC articles that look like it could be on the agenda for BBC East's Politics East on Sunday morning.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I believe Leeds to York via Harrogate is permitted so passengers can choose between trains via Castleford or Harrogate or RRBs during weekend closures of the direct line via Garforth

 

[scottishtrains]

As someone who lives in Scotland and has fantastic (and free) intercity coach travel, whenever there’s any sort of rail replacement buses, I’ll just take a coach the full way. Most of the time it ends up quicker, and way less hassle.

 

[edwin_m]

BBC News has an article on rail replacement bus services here:

Rail replacement buses continue through March on London lines

Travelling by train at weekends often means getting a rail replacement bus – and more are coming.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is one of those BBC articles that look like it could be on the agenda for BBC East's Politics East on Sunday morning.

Not knowing the area very well, but I wonder if replacement buses to somewhere on the Tilbury line might be a better option than connecting with the Tube at Newbury Park.

 

[Ian Hardy]

Not knowing the area very well, but I wonder if replacement buses to somewhere on the Tilbury line might be a better option than connecting with the Tube at Newbury Park.

Newbury Park station has a huge car park (space for about 40+ coaches) and is right next to the A12 which is the London to Lowestoft road, so it is very easy to get to by the RRBs and there is plenty of space for the coaches to park there. The Central Line runs every 5 minutes between Central London and Newbury Park whereas the C2C services are only every 15 minutes.

There aren't any stations on the London Tilbury & Southend (LT&S) line that have both that size of car park and have direct easy access off a dual carriageway that serves the Great Eastern Main Line stations directly. The RRBs would be have arrived at Newbury Park long before they had got to any of the LT&S stations.

Also the other issue is that the LT&S line goes into Fenchurch Street (it would not be able to serve Liverpool Street on those days as it would be closed due to the works), Fenchurch Street isn't directly served by the London Underground. You have to go out of the National Rail station and then walk along Coopers Row to get to Tower Hill Station. That would be too confusing for most weekend rail users.

 

[Mattplans]

I was caught up in the possession on the Eastern Leg of the Elizabeth Line a couple months back and had to travel to the Seven Kings area. On my inbound journey, I connected at Custom House then used a bus to the Ilford area, followed by another for Seven Kings. On my return journey, I was faced with the predicament of using either the 86 which pretty much runs down the Elizabeth Line corridor to Stratford or use the rrb* apparently running every 10 minutes. After walking to the front of the station and seeing both options were delayed, I opened citymapper and noticed Newbury Park was nearby and walked through the residential streets to get there. I would pick this option again because the inbound journey was nauseating as someone that suffers from motion sickness; and frankly the sheer amount of people at the bus stop worried me. The Central line was dead quiet, longer than usual journey to Stratford admittedly with no 4g/5g connection but it was a much better experience; and an opportunity to use a line I don't regularly use. If faced in the same situation in the future, I would do it again, but only few areas of London (especially outside z1,2) are lucky to have stations on different lines in close proximity. - Echoing the points above that Newbury park is genuinely massive and is well suited for RRBs.


* = Something I will say that impressed me with how RRBs are handled in other areas of London, the RRB was appearing on the Bus Countdown attached to the Bus Stop as a 'RAIL - Stratford Station - 10 minutes' entry. I was really impressed, and I'm not sure how complex this is but it needs to be brought to other areas of London to raise the profile of RRBs. Another way this is accomplished is through the yellow banners that are attached to rrb stops. This is a no brainer and I don't understand why it isn't available at non-TfL stations. I will note that the image I have attached to show an example has Wood Street with the 'NR' symbol not the one TFL use for LO, so it could have been taken when the line was operated by GA, in which case perhaps it's more of an operator issue than a TFL one.


Timetables are rubbish when they come to RRBs. And inconsistent destinations compounds the issue; ie RRBs from Romford will always go to Stratford and not sometimes continue to Liverpool Street or Paddington etc. On my local line, RRBs will sometimes go to Lewisham, sometimes New Cross, sometimes Greenwich, sometimes London Bridge. It is so inconsistent and I'm not sure how anyone can expect passengers to reasonably grasp this information without constantly checking the Southeastern website. I wonder if TfL charges TOCs to add their RRBs to the local stop's countdown or it is accessible by virtue of operating buses in London? Or perhaps only available to TfL trains? The overarching issue is that there is no way of reasonably being updated on the RRB. At your large destination stations such as Newcastle or other prominent LNER stops, you can expect to see staff ushering passengers to and from the coach stop and they are available to advise on destinations, routings, and when the RRB will depart. That's not available - or to be expected - at your local suburban stations. Southeastern RRBs now sometimes update based on their location through NR data feeds (meaning it reflects in the SE app and apps of other journey planners). While novel, it's insufficient. Very few will refer to journey planning apps on a day when the trains are not even running, but all will look at the bus countdown of the local bus stop.

 

[Snow1964]

An interesting one will be on early May when the busy route from South Wales to South Coast is shut (Bath - Westbury)

Saturday 2nd May just happens to be first day of the seasons busy cruise changeover days at Southampton (over 13,000 berths at double occupancy, or over 17,000 berths at max capacity) on single day. So potentially 26,000- 35,000 people heading to/from Southampton.

Will people with luggage choose to take Rail Replacement buses, re-route via Reading or Taunton or simply abandon railways because of engineering work, and drive or take a long distance coach instead ?

Following Saturday 9th May is even busier as potentially over 20,000 changing over, which raises a different question, is Saturdays a preferred holiday changeover day so work on routes to holiday terminals should be avoided on summer Saturdays

 

[Ian Hardy]

I was caught up in the possession on the Eastern Leg of the Elizabeth Line a couple months back and had to travel to the Seven Kings area. On my inbound journey, I connected at Custom House then used a bus to the Ilford area, followed by another for Seven Kings. On my return journey, I was faced with the predicament of using either the 86 which pretty much runs down the Elizabeth Line corridor to Stratford or use the rrb* apparently running every 10 minutes. After walking to the front of the station and seeing both options were delayed, I opened citymapper and noticed Newbury Park was nearby and walked through the residential streets to get there. I would pick this option again because the inbound journey was nauseating as someone that suffers from motion sickness; and frankly the sheer amount of people at the bus stop worried me. The Central line was dead quiet, longer than usual journey to Stratford admittedly with no 4g/5g connection but it was a much better experience; and an opportunity to use a line I don't regularly use. If faced in the same situation in the future, I would do it again, but only few areas of London (especially outside z1,2) are lucky to have stations on different lines in close proximity. - Echoing the points above that Newbury park is genuinely massive and is well suited for RRBs.


* = Something I will say that impressed me with how RRBs are handled in other areas of London, the RRB was appearing on the Bus Countdown attached to the Bus Stop as a 'RAIL - Stratford Station - 10 minutes' entry. I was really impressed, and I'm not sure how complex this is but it needs to be brought to other areas of London to raise the profile of RRBs. Another way this is accomplished is through the yellow banners that are attached to rrb stops. This is a no brainer and I don't understand why it isn't available at non-TfL stations. I will note that the image I have attached to show an example has Wood Street with the 'NR' symbol not the one TFL use for LO, so it could have been taken when the line was operated by GA, in which case perhaps it's more of an operator issue than a TFL one.


Timetables are rubbish when they come to RRBs. And inconsistent destinations compounds the issue; ie RRBs from Romford will always go to Stratford and not sometimes continue to Liverpool Street or Paddington etc. On my local line, RRBs will sometimes go to Lewisham, sometimes New Cross, sometimes Greenwich, sometimes London Bridge. It is so inconsistent and I'm not sure how anyone can expect passengers to reasonably grasp this information without constantly checking the Southeastern website. I wonder if TfL charges TOCs to add their RRBs to the local stop's countdown or it is accessible by virtue of operating buses in London? Or perhaps only available to TfL trains? The overarching issue is that there is no way of reasonably being updated on the RRB. At your large destination stations such as Newcastle or other prominent LNER stops, you can expect to see staff ushering passengers to and from the coach stop and they are available to advise on destinations, routings, and when the RRB will depart. That's not available - or to be expected - at your local suburban stations. Southeastern RRBs now sometimes update based on their location through NR data feeds (meaning it reflects in the SE app and apps of other journey planners). While novel, it's insufficient. Very few will refer to journey planning apps on a day when the trains are not even running, but all will look at the bus countdown of the local bus stop.

Since TfL's cyber incident, it is touch and go as to whether TfL RRB services are shown on countdown screens, some do some don't. Also only vehicles that have TfL ibus equipment installed will track on Countdown, i.e. vehicles used on normal TfL services.
As most of the non-TfL TOCs use bus operators from anywhere in the UK, only 1 or 2 buses out of 20 would be able to be shown on the Countdown which is worse than nothing at all.
With regards to the bus stop covers, TfL do it for their own operations: Underground, DLR, Tramlink, Overground, Crossrail and have authorisation from the London Boroughs to put those signs up.
The DfT TOCs don't have the same authorisation and paying TfL for putting signs up won't have included in their contract so wouldn't have budgeted for in their bids. So it is unlikely to change when GBR comes into being.

 

[bananas]

If I need to travel on a day with RRBs, on routes where regular coaches exist, I'll take a coach instead. From a coach company who actually knows how to run coaches. It's often slightly faster, more reliable, the information provided to passengers is much better, and almost always much cheaper.

 

[martin butler]

Just lately there's been a lot of RRB's In St Leonards, and often, they don't even serve the station, When the line to Bexhill was closed, the replacement busses stopped along the sea front, a good 10 mins walk from the station, not good if you have cases etc,

When its Southeastern, the busses tend to stop at the normal bus stop, again, up a steep ramp from the station, on the main road, so not only do you have a steep climb, but then might have to cross the main road, problem is that the Station approach roads are not really best suited for busses and coaches, where as Hastings has dedicated areas as the busses stop outside, by the station forecourt.