Rail replacement buses... not checking tickets

[Simon75]

I've used a few rail replacement buses in the last year,but very few ask to see tickets, is there a reason behind it ?

 

[BongoStar]

I have not seen a ticket check either, unless the bus was approaching near capacity and there were lots of people still waiting to board. (Which is just once in past 18 months).

The RRB are usually contracted out and only the driver is present. So unless checks are done when entering the bus, there isn't any additional staff to check tickets on route. From the operators point of view, they are getting paid the same whether it's just 1 person boarding or it goes full, so not their problem if no checks are done.

 

[Flying Snail]

Bus/coach drivers are not trained in rail ticketing so the vast majority couldn't properly check even if they were asked to.

Occasionally I have had rail staff checking people boarding replacement buses and sending a LOT of people back into the station to buy tickets.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This is actually fairly simple to resolve.

You just write into the contracts that operators providing rail replacement are responsible for validating tickets or write into the contract of the bus coordinators. Plenty of handheld devices available for any typical smartphone, plus Ticketer bus equipment can now scan and read rail barcode tickets and smartcards.

However, it is a question of cost. It's hard enough getting operators to run rail replacement services because the rates have absolutely wafer thin margins. I'm sure bus companies would happily scan tickets etc, for the right price.

There's a few TOCs who send revenue protection officers out and about during rail replacement operation, especially when it's longer term engineering work, e.g. a two week block etc.

 

[Autoticketgate]

From a customer service perspective the fact tickets are not checked can be a problem, especially as most RRBs I've seen don't indicate the destination/calling points on the bus. Of course you can ask but often you don't think to as most of the time there is only one bus - but one time I accidentally took one from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport instead of the one to Huddersfield a few minutes after! Fortunately there was a member of staff who helped me when I got there and realised my mistake.

Of course resolving that particular issue doesnt need ticket checking necessarily - and probably updating the display on the bus would be easier and cheaper (or at least should be depending on the technical limitations of the bus display controller; at worst with a printer nearby, someone can print a destination sign in a pinch, which would still not require the expertise or technology of ticket scanning).

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

From a customer service perspective the fact tickets are not checked can be a problem, especially as most RRBs I've seen don't indicate the destination/calling points on the bus. Of course you can ask but often you don't think to as most of the time there is only one bus - but one time I accidentally took one from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport instead of the one to Huddersfield a few minutes after! Fortunately there was a member of staff who helped me when I got there and realised my mistake.

Of course resolving that particular issue doesnt need ticket checking necessarily - and probably updating the display on the bus would be easier and cheaper (or at least should be depending on the technical limitations of the bus display controller; at worst with a printer nearby, someone can print a destination sign in a pinch, which would still not require the expertise or technology of ticket scanning).

There is a law requiring replacement buses to have full information displays and eventually, audible announcements. However, as the regulatory timescales for this were impractical to achieve given the number of operators and vehicles, it's a work in progress and should improve over the next couple of years.

 

[SeanG]

Occasionally I have had rail staff checking people boarding replacement buses and sending a LOT of people back into the station to buy tickets.

What powers to the railway have to combat fare evasion on a RRB? Does the legislation etc that applies on the railway apply to a RRB also?

 

[lachlan]

What powers to the railway have to combat fare evasion on a RRB? Does the legislation etc that applies on the railway apply to a RRB also?

Is fare evasion on rail replacement buses a problem? I tend to plan my travel around avoiding them altogether and when I have used them in the past they've been fairly quiet, suggesting other people do the same.

 

[Kite159]

In all my travels I've only seen two ticket checks on replacement buses. One with Northern at Preston when the line towards Chorley was closed for overhead wiring and once at Chalford Hundred with buses towards Grays & Tilbury

 

[JonathanH]

Is fare evasion on rail replacement buses a problem?

Yes, particularly in London where no mechanism to charge for Oyster or Contactless has been put in place (other than in a few cases where the replacement bus has been registered as a normal service).

 

[Dent]

Yes, particularly in London where no mechanism to charge for Oyster or Contactless has been put in place (other than in a few cases where the replacement bus has been registered as a normal service).

That's not fare evasion, it's not the passenger's fault if there is no facility for them to pay.

 

[Watershed]

What powers to the railway have to combat fare evasion on a RRB? Does the legislation etc that applies on the railway apply to a RRB also?

I can't see that any of the usual railway laws apply as to a bus, even if it is acting in the capacity of a rail replacement bus.

Each enabling Act (or Transport & Works Act Order) authorising the construction of a particular railway contains a provision that the Acts such as the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 apply to the section of railway in question. There is no such provision for buses.

Perhaps there is some bus legislation that applies - but as RRBs generally aren't registered bus routes, I doubt it.

I think it is purely a matter of the bus company or contracting rail operator being entitled to refuse you entry to the bus (or to eject you) if you don't have a ticket, under the same trespass provisions as any other private property.

 

[BongoStar]

In my experience, the instances of someone who doendt have a valid ticket boarding the RRB is so slim that it's not worth the time and cost to check the tickets.

Fare evasion on rail takes many forms (shorting, false railcard, no ticket etc). RRB are point to point without any stops in between usually.

The only check that will be is whether anyone boarding has a correct ticket for the portion of the route. Anyone intent on evading the fare simply has to buy an open return between the route and ask for a refund after the trip as it won't be scanned at both ends.

The checks will be a loss making exercise and likely to frustrate the already annoyed passengers waiting to legitimately board by adding additional time to their already longer journey.

 

[greenline712]

In the nicest possible way ... forcing Rail Replacement coach drivers to check tickets ... don't be daft !!
It would only work after considerable training for the drivers and considerable expense in some form of electronic validation.
Bear in mind that many rail staff (from what we read on here) struggle with convoluted journeys, or with split tickets, and as for rover/ranger tickets .... would you expect a driver, confronted with a Rover ticket at a station in the middle of nowhere, to spend 5 minutes leafing through a manual to check validity?

I'll also make the point that most coach drivers dislike RRS work ... no help from railway staff in dealing with problems or difficult passengers; poor or non-existant directions and no route learning ... most would simply refuse the work, and RR coaches would disappear for ever.

Sometimes what we have is actually the best that we can have.
Pragmaticability Rules !!!!

 

[Gloster]

It was rather the opposite when I travelled from Lymington Pier to Town. I couldn’t buy a ticket as the platform was barriered off and I couldn’t get to the machine, while Wightlink don’t sell local tickets. The member of South West Trains staff accompanying the bus wouldn’t let me on it but couldn’t sell me a ticket. A lengthy discussion ensued in which I became somewhat pointed (although polite, just) until she let me on. At the Town she followed me to the ticket machine and watched me buy a ticket while the already late bus waited. When I bought it she just walked off to the bus without looking at the ticket.

 

[reb0118]

I can remember being rostered onto rail replacement buses [RRB] between Bathgate & Edinburgh as an assistant ticket examiner more than 25 years ago. A passenger attempted to pay his whole fare in coppers so the bus driver pulled into the side and told him to get off.

Now, AFAIAA, my TOC does not check tickets on RRBs. For stopping services they are generally free.

 

[redreni]

Yes, particularly in London where no mechanism to charge for Oyster or Contactless has been put in place (other than in a few cases where the replacement bus has been registered as a normal service).

When I lived in Walthamstow they used to put on rail replacement to Manor House if the Vic line was closed. Afaik there was no way to pay for that other than by buying a paper ticket, which I'm sure nobody did due to the deterrent pricing.

Nearly all of us tapped in to continue our journey when we reached Manor House, so we paid something, albeit less in some cases than if we'd touched in at Walthamstow Central. They would close off access to the LU gateline at Walthamstow Central, so tapping in there wouldn't have been an option. Passengers only going between Walthamstow, Blackhorse Road, Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters got a free ride.

I must say, only paying the Z2-Z1 fare to get from Z3 into Z1 seemed fair enough to me in the circumstances, given the inconvenience and delay.

 

[sheff1]

Is fare evasion on rail replacement buses a problem?

I try and avoid RRBs, but a couple of examples from a few years back (I would be surprised if things had changed in the interim).

* An announcement was made at Millom that an RRB was in operation due to a cancelled train. The person next to me got on the phone and said "the free bus to Barrow is on again". A few minutes later a group of his mates arrived ready to travel.

* Somewhere in the Manchester area (possibly Wilmslow ?) a group of RPIs met an arriving RRB - well over half of those alighting had no ticket and seemed very suprised to be asked for one.

 

[PG]

Somewhere in the Manchester area (possibly Wilmslow ?) a group of RPIs met an arriving RRB - well over half of those alighting had no ticket and seemed very suprised to be asked for one.

What did the RPIs do with these ticket-less passengers? Other than 'requesting' that they purchased a ticket for the journey taken what could they legally do? @Watershed has highlighted that the RORA makes no provision for buses so, potentially, is this similar to the wrongful actions of certain TOCs in bringing cases before magistrates under the SJPN??

 

[Flying Snail]

What did the RPIs do with these ticket-less passengers? Other than 'requesting' that they purchased a ticket for the journey taken what could they legally do? @Watershed has highlighted that the RORA makes no provision for buses so, potentially, is this similar to the wrongful actions of certain TOCs in bringing cases before magistrates under the SJPN??

Just a correction on that. Watershed gave his opinion that the RORA does not apply to RRB, this is not an established fact.

It is a rather wild presumption that the railway laws do not apply to customers when railway services are provided by a railway company on buses.

 

[Silver Cobra]

The only time I encounter a ticket check on a rail replacement bus on my part of the ECML (Hitchin to Peterborough) is when Stagecoach are running the RRBs. The smaller bus/coach operators never seem to take an interest in seeing tickets; they only want to know which way you're going to make sure you're on the right bus.

 

[Watershed]

Just a correction on that. Watershed gave his opinion that the RORA does not apply to RRB, this is not an established fact.

You're quite correct but everything on the internet is just an opinion. Indeed, even a lawyer's view would still be an opinion (which may later turn out to be incorrect).

It is a rather wild presumption that the railway laws do not apply to customers when railway services are provided by a railway company on buses.

You have to look at the actual wording of the law to determine their scope. RoRA refers to "passenger by a railway" and specifies that:

“railway company” includes an operator of a train, and

“operator”, in relation to a train, means the person having the management of that train for the time being

I cannot see any way in which a bus can be described as a train, even if it acts as a rail replacement bus. It is physically speaking a bus, not a train, and no amount of semantics changes that.

Plus there is the matter of why the enabling Acts or TWAOs specify that RoRA applies to a newly authorised section of railway. This is surely not done by accident. How can RoRA apply on property, and indeed a means of transport, that is outwith the enabling Act?

 

[TUC]

Surely it's far better to have no ticket checks than to have a problem with a not well informed bus driver over a perfectly valid ticket being used on an unusual route?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You're quite correct but everything on the internet is just an opinion. Indeed, even a lawyer's view would still be an opinion (which may later turn out to be incorrect).


You have to look at the actual wording of the law to determine their scope. RoRA refers to "passenger by a railway" and specifies that:

I cannot see any way in which a bus can be described as a train, even if it acts as a rail replacement bus. It is physically speaking a bus, not a train, and no amount of semantics changes that.

Plus there is the matter of why the enabling Acts or TWAOs specify that RoRA applies to a newly authorised section of railway. This is surely not done by accident. How can RoRA apply on property, and indeed a means of transport, that is outwith the enabling Act?

And for completeness, RoRA does not (as far as I can see at one glance at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57) define a 'train'. So unless there's some other legislation that provides definitions for RoRA, or case law considering the point, 'train' is likely to take its everyday or dictionary meaning: my interpretation of its everyday meaning would be something like 'a wheeled vehicle or vehicles running on rails'. And I wouldn't expect the courts to get overly bogged down with thoughts of camel, mule or wagon trains.

 

[BongoStar]

Someone somewhere in the chain of command has done a cost benefit analysis and determined its not worth getting the tickets checked. Everything else is secondary.

If it were worth it, ToC would engage the best lawyers to argue at RRB fall under RORA.

There was the recent report that TfL spent more on enforcement than it collected (although it's not than accurate reflection of the story).

For once, I think the ToC have taken a business friendly decision and not taken a hard position just for the sake of it.

I am sure if it comes to their attention that it is being widely abused, they will revisit.

 

[redreni]

And for completeness, RoRA does not (as far as I can see at one glance at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57) define a 'train'. So unless there's some other legislation that provides definitions for RoRA, or case law considering the point, 'train' is likely to take its everyday or dictionary meaning: my interpretation of its everyday meaning would be something like 'a wheeled vehicle or vehicles running on rails'. And I wouldn't expect the courts to get overly bogged down with thoughts of camel, mule or wagon trains.

Yes, one would think we all know what a train is. But then again, I thought I knew what cider was until the advertising industry spend millions telling us perry is also cider. And I thought I knew what a tram was until a load of gadgetbahn chancers started putting fairings over the wheels of electric buses and telling gullible local councillors they were "trackless trams".

Funnily enough my Dad commented the other day about the railway's insistence on calling trains 'services'. The best explanation I could think of at the time was it's to distinguish in-service passenger trains from other things a signaller might be dealing with such as empty passenger rolling stock, goods trains, maintenance or measurement trains etc. But maybe another reason is that "service" is broad enough that it could include both trains and buses?

Language is always evolving and there are always those who want to manipulate it for their own ends. But I agree, anyone trying to argue buses can be trains for the purposes of RoRA is going to struggle. But perhaps if they get really desperate, we might start seeing this type of vehicle pressed into service as 'replacement trains' when the actual railway is closed?

 

[cool110]

All the major dictionaries have some variant of "a number of connected vehicles...". So a single 153 or any of the older railcars wouldn't be trains, yet it would be absurd to exclude them from RoRA and the Byelaws.

 

[redreni]

All the major dictionaries have some variant of "a number of connected vehicles...". So a single 153 or any of the older railcars wouldn't be trains, yet it would be absurd to exclude them from RoRA and the Byelaws.

When my mother used to take the train to see my late Grandmother in Grimsby, she used to complain that the rattler she had to use for the final leg of the journey was "not a train" for that very reason. But I don't think she'd have tried to use that as an excuse not to pay the fare!

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I think trying to get bus drivers to involve themselves in rail tickets is a very wrong answer. If the railway wants to check tickets, they can supply the staff to do it.

Everyone should have a ticket - for a non-London journey I always do - but I'm not paying more in London because the RRBs can't validate a card. At some stations it would be possible to do that inside the building but that's not always the case. If the railway can provide buses equipped for whatever local PAYG scheme operates then of course everyone should continue to use that as long as they won't pay more for the overall journey. A "local" bus would also be more accessible, though slightly worse for comfort and terminal for luggage.

 

[sheff1]

What did the RPIs do with these ticket-less passengers?

Those passengers were are told to queue up to the side. I don't know what the RPIs dealing with the queue did - as a ticket holding passenger I continued on my way.