Rail Replacement buses during Transpennine Route Upgrade

[_toommm_]

Anyone on the TRU survey panel, a new one has just come out asking about the future experience of Rail Replacement Buses (RRBs). Hopefully they get some decent RRBs for the extended closures, and not just any old service bus…

 

[YorksLad12]

Anyone on the TRU survey panel, a new one has just come out asking about the future experience of Rail Replacement Buses (RRBs). Hopefully they get some decent RRBs for the extended closures, and not just any old service bus…

Hopefully they will get drivers who know where they're going. A few years back I took one replacing the stopper from Leeds to Huddersfield. He got a bit lost stopping at Cottingley, covering most of the estate roads, and almost tried to call *at* Mirfield Station (low bridge, nowhere to turn), where I was going to.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hopefully they will get drivers who know where they're going. A few years back I took one replacing the stopper from Leeds to Huddersfield. He got a bit lost stopping at Cottingley, covering most of the estate roads, and almost tried to call *at* Mirfield Station (low bridge, nowhere to turn), where I was going to.

At least now the Lidl car park at Mirfield offers a turning opportunity if needed!

 

[nr758123]

Hopefully they will get drivers who know where they're going. A few years back I took one replacing the stopper from Leeds to Huddersfield. He got a bit lost stopping at Cottingley, covering most of the estate roads, and almost tried to call *at* Mirfield Station (low bridge, nowhere to turn), where I was going to.

Seconded.

Not only drivers who know where they're going, but also drivers who are willing to go where they are directed. A few years back we had a problem with whether buses would call at either, both or neither of Marsden and Slaithwaite stations, with Northern's social media giving out contradictory information. Once it was clarified that the buses would divert to Marsden station, one of the bus drivers refused to do so even when a passenger showed him the twitter exchange in which Northern had given that information. He insisted that he would do what suited him regardless of what Northern had told their passengers.

 

[zwk500]

Seconded.

Not only drivers who know where they're going, but also drivers who are willing to go where they are directed. A few years back we had a problem with whether buses would call at either, both or neither of Marsden and Slaithwaite stations, with Northern's social media giving out contradictory information. Once it was clarified that the buses would divert to Marsden station, one of the bus drivers refused to do so even when a passenger showed him the twitter exchange in which Northern had given that information. He insisted that he would do what suited him regardless of what Northern had told their passengers.

Tbh that's a problem with organising of the buses in the first place. Northern should have had a clear plan and contracted buses to run to that plan, rather than make it up on twitter.

 

[Watershed]

The buses for upcoming blockades are supposedly "high quality" ones. Let's see what materialises.

 

[Horizon22]

Hopefully they will get drivers who know where they're going. A few years back I took one replacing the stopper from Leeds to Huddersfield. He got a bit lost stopping at Cottingley, covering most of the estate roads, and almost tried to call *at* Mirfield Station (low bridge, nowhere to turn), where I was going to.

Hopefully they get drivers full stop. As discussed earlier in this thread, bus/coach drivers are in short supply although the issues seem to have lessened. If its pre-booked it should also hopefully be better.

 

[Halish Railway]

I don’t know too much about Buses, but I seem to remember that during the lengthy North Fylde line blockade (2017 to 2018), fairly high-quality buses were supplied, although they were more geared to local services, but nevertheless having a decent quality bus such as those just mentioned to work on all stations RRBs would be ideal.

Also, since the Huddersfield line’s slack time is during summer, many local buses and coaches that would normally work on school pupil only routes should be available, including coaches that a lot of private schools around West Yorkshire use.

 

[Starmill]

Blackpool Transport's buses for Northern work were pretty good.

They even played a welcome announcement and were able to announce the next stop automatically, as on the trains.

 

[Halish Railway]

Blackpool Transport's buses for Northern work were pretty good.

They even played a welcome announcement and were able to announce the next stop automatically, as on the trains.

Do we trust First to supply the same high quality? That is assuming that Northern or TPE use First Buses, if so I hope that none of the green & red suburban buses find their way onto a service going all of the way to Huddersfield.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's up to the rail company to specify any particular requirements. The bus/coach operator will only supply what has been requested.

 

[YorksLad12]

Seconded.

Not only drivers who know where they're going, but also drivers who are willing to go where they are directed. A few years back we had a problem with whether buses would call at either, both or neither of Marsden and Slaithwaite stations, with Northern's social media giving out contradictory information. Once it was clarified that the buses would divert to Marsden station, one of the bus drivers refused to do so even when a passenger showed him the twitter exchange in which Northern had given that information. He insisted that he would do what suited him regardless of what Northern had told their passengers.

Weird. I've done those where they just run along Manchester Road, which is a lot easier as (a) it's Manchester Road, with bus stops and (b) people don't want to go *to the station* it's just the place at which they arrive. Main road stops for Morley, Mirfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite makes sense to me; even Cottingley could be done from Elland Road or the Ring Road, at a pinch.

Hopefully they get drivers full stop. As discussed earlier in this thread, bus/coach drivers are in short supply although the issues seem to have lessened. If its pre-booked it should also hopefully be better.

Indeed.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Blackpool Transport's buses for Northern work were pretty good.

They even played a welcome announcement and were able to announce the next stop automatically, as on the trains.

Agreed. All RRBs were great during the Preston to Blackpool electrification and upgrade project

 

[_toommm_]

Hopefully they get drivers full stop. As discussed earlier in this thread, bus/coach drivers are in short supply although the issues seem to have lessened. If its pre-booked it should also hopefully be better.

When I filled it out, I put that there will be a need for high-quality buses, and/or accessible coaches. No Streetlites or any other local bus that they can get their hands on.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

When I filled it out, I put that there will be a need for high-quality buses, and/or accessible coaches. No Streetlites or any other local bus that they can get their hands on.

If only there was more of them - the Plaxton Panther LE's or air-conditioned Scania Omnilinks!

 

[nr758123]

Weird. I've done those where they just run along Manchester Road, which is a lot easier as (a) it's Manchester Road, with bus stops and (b) people don't want to go *to the station* it's just the place at which they arrive. Main road stops for ............................. Marsden and Slaithwaite makes sense to me;

I agree that it makes sense to stay on Manchester Road – the time penalty of a replacement bus is quite enough without crossing to the opposite side of the valley and back – except in the case of short-notice cancellations. Even for short-notice cancellations, now that there’s a functioning PA and PIS on the stations, and most passengers can check information on mobile phones, it should be possible to run the buses along Manchester Road having made all reasonable efforts to inform the passengers of same.

The problem arises when the information given out to passengers and what actually happens are two different things.

 

[Towers]

Unfortunately, the emergence of the local service bus on RRB work is down to the accessibility rules and looks set to stay; there aren't that many fully accessible coaches around and of course it isn't deemed acceptable just to have a supply of accessible taxis available, it has to be every vehicle.

My own observations have been that TOCs are managing quite well to adhere to the rules, but large projects inevitably involve squadrons of 'city bus' hardware turning up, much of it not particularly welcoming for punters travelling any sort of distance. Local bus operators appear to have welcomed the extra work flows at weekends, something that up until a few years ago many of them wouldn't have tended to get heavily involved in, much of the RRB workload traditionally going to the coach operators. It's noticeable that some of those coach firms are now running low floor buses (of varying levels of quality!) to try and keep up and retain a share of the work.

During the Salisbury derailment a few weeks back there was all manner of stuff turning up on the Salisbury - Southampton - Romsey replacement work, including at least one vehicle from an operator based in London and a selection of Stagecoach service buses. Interesting that a major outfit like Stagecoach were involved but presumably either weren't offered or couldn't cover the full requirement.

 

[Class800]

Interesting as SWR replacements in West of England are usually coach hires, unless it's for Whimple, Feniton etc where the narrow road mean usually - but not always with some entertaining results - a minibus or a small service bus is sent

 

[M60lad]

What turns up on Rail Replacement is also down to which Rail Support Company a TOC uses, for example apparently Northern now use Abbelio Rail Support Services and during the recent Calder Valley upgrade between Rochdale and Halifax Buses and Coaches were sourced from a wide range of operators from around the country with some operators even coming from Midlands to operate the services.

 

[markymark2000]

Quite often, it's worth noting that RRB suppliers ask for a coach and a company accepts the job on the basis of it being a coach, then supplies a service bus. Others may supply unsuitable vehicles. Some coordinators report it as I have heard them doing so but it causes too much agro to take firms off the job and source a replacement bus. Sometimes, I think desperation comes into play as well and with not enough operators on some of the portals, it's difficult to get replacement buses.

CMAC (Avanti) for example, when Chester to Crewe is down, it's all Lancashire operators. Abellio (TFW) even had minibuses in from Birmingham on a Llandudno to Holyhead block. What does that have to tell you about how difficult it is to get vehicles.

What turns up on Rail Replacement is also down to which Rail Support Company a TOC uses, for example apparently Northern now use Abbelio Rail Support Services and during the recent Calder Valley upgrade between Rochdale and Halifax Buses and Coaches were sourced from a wide range of operators from around the country with some operators even coming from Midlands to operate the services.

The contract is still with Northern so unsure why Abellio were being used.


In my opinion, the issue is coach operators not knowing how to join the portals or being on certain portals but not others so local firms with the best buses and local knowledge, won't always be used.
The operators who are on the job, may not always be the best and supply wrong vehicles, double book and/or not provide drivers with the best information. Many drivers follow sat navs and the signs for the station, not the rail replacement stops. Ideally, the Rail Rep suppliers would mandate the use of an app which they create and has GPS tracking and sat nav stuff built in to the correct stops. Then you are literally giving the drivers the directions and correct stops so no excuse for wrong stops and no excuse for anything to go wrong and it's all tracked for certain so if things go wrong, you can check back.

 

[Robertj21a]

Quite often, it's worth noting that RRB suppliers ask for a coach and a company accepts the job on the basis of it being a coach, then supplies a service bus. Others may supply unsuitable vehicles. Some coordinators report it as I have heard them doing so but it causes too much agro to take firms off the job and source a replacement bus. Sometimes, I think desperation comes into play as well and with not enough operators on some of the portals, it's difficult to get replacement buses.

CMAC (Avanti) for example, when Chester to Crewe is down, it's all Lancashire operators. Abellio (TFW) even had minibuses in from Birmingham on a Llandudno to Holyhead block. What does that have to tell you about how difficult it is to get vehicles.


The contract is still with Northern so unsure why Abellio were being used.


In my opinion, the issue is coach operators not knowing how to join the portals or being on certain portals but not others so local firms with the best buses and local knowledge, won't always be used.
The operators who are on the job, may not always be the best and supply wrong vehicles, double book and/or not provide drivers with the best information. Many drivers follow sat navs and the signs for the station, not the rail replacement stops. Ideally, the Rail Rep suppliers would mandate the use of an app which they create and has GPS tracking and sat nav stuff built in to the correct stops. Then you are literally giving the drivers the directions and correct stops so no excuse for wrong stops and no excuse for anything to go wrong and it's all tracked for certain so if things go wrong, you can check back.

You'll get the better coaches, and general service, if you pay appropriate rates. Many TOCs pay low but expect the best.

 

[Andyh82]

What turns up on Rail Replacement is also down to which Rail Support Company a TOC uses, for example apparently Northern now use Abbelio Rail Support Services and during the recent Calder Valley upgrade between Rochdale and Halifax Buses and Coaches were sourced from a wide range of operators from around the country with some operators even coming from Midlands to operate the services.

When I travelled on two on the Calder valley earlier in the autumn, coaches from a Burnley firm were provided

Clearly a fairly budget outfit, coaches plain white, heating on full blast, driver clearly having been smoking in his seat whilst on his layover. They were ex-National Express Mark 1 Levantes.

The driver knew where they were going though

 

[randyrippley]

I don’t know too much about Buses, but I seem to remember that during the lengthy North Fylde line blockade (2017 to 2018), fairly high-quality buses were supplied, although they were more geared to local services, but nevertheless having a decent quality bus such as those just mentioned to work on all stations RRBs would be ideal.

Also, since the Huddersfield line’s slack time is during summer, many local buses and coaches that would normally work on school pupil only routes should be available, including coaches that a lot of private schools around West Yorkshire use.

That was only possible because Blackpool Transport had just acquired a new fleet - some of which they leased out as RRBs, while keeping the old ones for a bit longer than intended

 

[markymark2000]

That was only possible because Blackpool Transport had just acquired a new fleet - some of which they leased out as RRBs, while keeping the old ones for a bit longer than intended

I'm sure Northern asked for all the best buses then to give a good impression and so most of the deckers were ordered on the provision of getting the RRB work for a decent time period to make it a worthwhile investment. Hence why Blackpool don't mind selling some of them to the likes of WOB. They don't have a need for the deckers really on the core network as numbers don't justify it.

 

[507020]

That was only possible because Blackpool Transport had just acquired a new fleet - some of which they leased out as RRBs, while keeping the old ones for a bit longer than intended

When there is a large rail upgrade programme being planned years in advance, does it make sense to procure a large fleet of high specification buses specifically for the purpose, which can then run as service buses once the line reopens? Operators like Blackpool Transport could be utilised in such a way, ordering buses only because they were to be leased to rail operators for the first few years.

 

[Man of Kent]

Any route over 50km long will require a tachograph-equipped vehicle. This usually means a coach, as only a small minority of buses have one. However, of late Go-Ahead rail replacement at Southern and South Eastern has been splitting replacement services into sections less than 50km, so that buses can be used.

 

[Watershed]

Any route over 50km long will require a tachograph-equipped vehicle. This usually means a coach, as only a small minority of buses have one. However, of late Go-Ahead rail replacement at Southern and South Eastern has been splitting replacement services into sections less than 50km, so that buses can be used.

Another trick is to have a short dwell at an intermediate point, and declaring it - for the purposes of the Regulations - as two separate services that happen to be operated by the same vehicle.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

At least now the Lidl car park at Mirfield offers a turning opportunity if needed!

I would have thought that the bus stops opposite the library and opposite Tesco would have been used instead, therefore less chance of low bridging.

Weird. I've done those where they just run along Manchester Road, which is a lot easier as (a) it's Manchester Road, with bus stops and (b) people don't want to go *to the station* it's just the place at which they arrive. Main road stops for Morley, Mirfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite makes sense to me; even Cottingley could be done from Elland Road or the Ring Road, at a pinch.


Indeed.

Cottingley should be directed to use the Leeds City 51/52 services instead, then the RRB's can skip Cottingley thus allowing a faster Leeds > Morley run. As for Marsden and Slaithwaite (Slawit), the stops along the A62 - Peel Street for Marsden and Hollins Row? for Slaithwaite are ideal enough.

I can imagine that TPE would contract out the requirements of one fast coach running non stop between Huddersfield and Leeds, one semi-fast calling at Dewsbury and the stopper.

 

[M60lad]

I know that some operators will travel far and wide to do Rail Replacements as I know that only recently over the past year Atlantic of Bolton have been doing Rail Replacements from Birmingham New Street and Midland Classic of Burton-on-Trent have been known to do Rail Replacement in/around Midlands and beyond as well using Buses from their fleet.

 

[507020]

Any route over 50km long will require a tachograph-equipped vehicle. This usually means a coach, as only a small minority of buses have one. However, of late Go-Ahead rail replacement at Southern and South Eastern has been splitting replacement services into sections less than 50km, so that buses can be used.

I’ve seen minibuses with tachographs installed but they were never used. If service buses don’t have them that’s another reason for a dedicated fleet of rail replacement buses.