Rail Replacement Bus Services

[WelshBluebird]

With extensive Engineering Work currently taking place, especially between Cardiff/Newport/Bristol Parkway and involving heavy bustitution, GWR Twitter frequently revealing bus drivers getting lost and, on occasions, not even know where they are supposed to be going.

Not unusual sadly . At least Cardiff - Newport - Bristol is relatively simple. The worst I've experienced was a driver on a replacement bus on the Valley Lines between Cardiff and Treherbert. Literally no idea. Though I guess Cardiff to Bristol being simpler means drivers getting lost is even worse!

In terms of the current disruption, the worst I had was a month ago when rail replacement buses were operating from Cardiff to Bristol at the same time the Brynglas tunnels had a planned closure. Cue utter chaos with what was a 1 hour timetabled bustitution taking 2.5 hours, staff having no idea what was going on, and people waiting ages at Cardiff and Bristol to buses (as the ones they had were obviously taking longer to be ready for the return trip). I could understand if it was an unplanned closure, but it was a planned on. How on earth GWR didn't plan for that I have no idea. I may have already mentioned this on this forum (or even thread!) but it was so bad I can't help mentioning it again!

 

[Robertj21a]

Not unusual sadly . At least Cardiff - Newport - Bristol is relatively simple. The worst I've experienced was a driver on a replacement bus on the Valley Lines between Cardiff and Treherbert. Literally no idea. Though I guess Cardiff to Bristol being simpler means drivers getting lost is even worse!

In terms of the current disruption, the worst I had was a month ago when rail replacement buses were operating from Cardiff to Bristol at the same time the Brynglas tunnels had a planned closure. Cue utter chaos with what was a 1 hour timetabled bustitution taking 2.5 hours, staff having no idea what was going on, and people waiting ages at Cardiff and Bristol to buses (as the ones they had were obviously taking longer to be ready for the return trip). I could understand if it was an unplanned closure, but it was a planned on. How on earth GWR didn't plan for that I have no idea. I may have already mentioned this on this forum (or even thread!) but it was so bad I can't help mentioning it again!

I think it's fairly well known that First are often particularly poor at handling all the issues relating to rail replacement buses/coaches. You need to watch Stagecoach to see how much better it can be done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would be the problem with a 70 seater?

At 14 I was basically adult sized - and thus unable to safely use the seat belt on a 3+2 seated coach. Therefore a safety concern is quite legitimate.

They are suitable for up to about year 8 at most.

 

[Mugby]

I saw a very diverse selection of exotic coaches and even a double decker bus at Leeds yesterday on RRB work, some carrying names, some anonymous, in connection with the blockade of the TPE route to Manchester.

 

[quarella]

I think it needs to be remembered that the 70 seater 3+2 coaches are not just knocked together at the whim of an operator but are adapted and certified after meeting specific regulations. They were introduced as a response to this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3404665.stm and other incidents leading to the creation of organisations such as BUSK.

The 70 seater 3+2 coaches came about in response to this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3404665.stm and other collisions involving school buses. To replace the capacity of a double decker (2 classes + supervision) would have required two vehicles, and, depending on age of children and terms of hire etc extra supervision.

On the 3 or 4 occasions I have travelled on this type of vehicle, all from the same operator I have found them OK. Pitch was a bit tight in some rows, but that is the case in some standard vehicles. The seat belt was fine. The longest journey was about 2 hours and I was starting to feel the more utilitarian nature of the seating. Bletchleyrite – You suggest a number of standard seats at the front for teachers and leaders. I know of drivers who will not turn a wheel unless there is an adult by the emergency exit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know...I just don't think they should be allowed in their present form because normal sized adults (I'm guessing you are maybe a little on the slim side?) don't fit them properly and therefore cannot use the seat belt safely. They are essentially a safer replacement to the old practice of putting 3 schoolchildren on a 2 seat bench (or as you say deckers).

An easy fix would be to keep them on school work and have 2-3 rows of 2+2 at the front for any teachers etc. (Though usually they are only 5 across at the back with no aisle as most other coaches are so if you need a bit of width that can be an option).

Re the exit...then a row of 2 (opposite 2 kid-seats) there as well! (If it's at the back the back row is typically normal width anyway, I never saw one with 6 across at the back).

 

[Dai Corner]

Adult-sized seats would be appreciated by adult-sized 16-18 year olds on school runs too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Adult-sized seats would be appreciated by adult-sized 16-18 year olds on school runs too.

Yes, I think I'd make it a maximum legal age of either 13 or 14 for the "kid seats". I was certainly full adult sized (if not as podgy) by about 14.

 

[Smod]

I recall some years ago getting a rail replacement bus to Weybridge. I realised that we were running a few minutes late, so when the RRB stopped I ran into the station and on the train. I then watched the doors close as the rest of the passengers emerged from the stairs onto the platform. It then departed, leaving everyone else with a 30 minute wait, and doubtless a platform full of angry passengers. A few minutes later the train stopped, as scheduled, for several minutes at Surbiton. So in this case waiting for the rest of the passengers would have had no effect on the eventual arrival time at Waterloo.

On another note, would it be fair to say that Pacers are the only rail replacement buses that run on railway tracks?

 

[fowler9]

I'm sure I read somewhere that 3+2 seaters are not allowed on rail replacement services. That said last Sunday between Liverpool South Parkway and Lime Street the rail replacement buses only occasionally turned up where they were meant to and even then not when. During the recent closure of Lime Street Arriva operated the rail replacement buses really well.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Had some more fun on the GWR replacement buses this weekend past.

I was under the impression that RRB are not held for incoming late trains unless the services in question are later in the evening (and so are less frequent or start to get close to last trains etc). But GWR did hold the RRB bus that I was on at Newport for a good 14 minutes waiting for two incoming late trains on Saturday.

This meant the 10 minutes between the timetabled arrival time at Bristol Parkway and the departure time of the continuing train from Bristol Parkway to Portsmouth Harbour was not enough. Thankfully the train was held for me - and only me (I had tweeted GWR asking them to hold it, they initially said they couldn't but as I got off the coach I noticed on NRE it still hadn't left, so I ran through the station and as I jumped onto the train the dispatcher asked if I was the passenger for Bath and as soon as I was on he dispatched the service).

But why on earth is only 10 minutes given between the timetabled arrival time of the bus and the timetabled departure time of the train? Seems a recipe for chaos knowing that it could just as easily been traffic causing the delay rather than leaving Newport late.

 

[Dai Corner]

Had some more fun on the GWR replacement buses this weekend past.


But why on earth is only 10 minutes given between the timetabled arrival time of the bus and the timetabled departure time of the train? Seems a recipe for chaos knowing that it could just as easily been traffic causing the delay rather than leaving Newport late.

If the train left later it would miss connections later on, if the bus left earlier those on the trains it connected out of would miss it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If the train left later it would miss connections later on, if the bus left earlier those on the trains it connected out of would miss it.

Not really the case as it the timetable had plenty of padding in it - even though we left Parkway 4 minutes late, we departed the next station on time, and then also had 5 minutes dwell time at Bristol Temple Meads.

Regardless, my point was more about the timetabling of the services. It left pretty much no room for any delay to the replacement bus. Going in the Cardiff direction that isn't too bad as the trains from Newport to Cardiff are more frequent. But for those wanting stations from Bath onwards, the services were only hourly, so not exactly great from a passenger point of view to have such a tight schedule!

 

[Dai Corner]

Not really the case as it the timetable had plenty of padding in it - even though we left Parkway 4 minutes late, we departed the next station on time, and then also had 5 minutes dwell time at Bristol Temple Meads.

Regardless, my point was more about the timetabling of the services. It left pretty much no room for any delay to the replacement bus. Going in the Cardiff direction that isn't too bad as the trains from Newport to Cardiff are more frequent. But for those wanting stations from Bath onwards, the services were only hourly, so not exactly great from a passenger point of view to have such a tight schedule!

So are you saying rail replacement buses should have plenty of padding but trains shouldn't have any?

Five minutes allowance to reverse (changing ends/driver) at Temple Meads seems reasonable and with a number of potentially conflicting moves around Parkway/Filton Junctions/Temple Meads four minutes allowance seems sensible.

In this particular case the four minutes was spent waiting for your bus.

A train or bus planner can never win. Too tight and delays and missed connections can occur, too loose and journey times are unnecessarily long and more resources are needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So are you saying rail replacement buses should have plenty of padding but trains shouldn't have any?

They certainly need more, because there is more scope for delays on the roads.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So are you saying rail replacement buses should have plenty of padding but trains shouldn't have any?

Five minutes allowance to reverse (changing ends/driver) at Temple Meads seems reasonable and with a number of potentially conflicting moves around Parkway/Filton Junctions/Temple Meads four minutes allowance seems sensible.

In this particular case the four minutes was spent waiting for your bus.

A train or bus planner can never win. Too tight and delays and missed connections can occur, too loose and journey times are unnecessarily long and more resources are needed.

Not at all! Just pointing out that:

1. I find it pretty odd that a lot of rail services have so much padding but at least in my experience replacement bus services don't, despite the greater chance for delays (as Bletchleyite points out above).
2. Replacement bus timetables should be realistic. Even ignoring the concept of padding, 40 minutes to do Newport to Bristol Parkway in a double decker is at the very best case side of things (it took 37 minutes on this particular trip, and that was with basically no traffic slowing us down). Indeed some of the other bus services that day were timed for 50 minutes which is a lot fairer IMO (including one that was due only an hour prior, so it wasn't a traffic reason).
3. People should actually be given time between bus arrival time and train departure time to easily make the train service. 9 minutes to walk through Bristol Parkway station is not that much if you have luggage or have mobility issues or even just haven't been to the station ever before.

I am not at all trying to say it is an easy job, and I agree that sometimes they are pretty much in a no win situation. But as someone who often has to deal with replacement buses on that route, 40 minutes timetabled for the replacement bus with just 9 minutes at the other end before the connecting train just seems to be cutting it way too fine (and it certainly isn't the first time I have missed connecting trains on this route because of replacement buses and their timetabling, so I'd suggest this is a real problem that needs to be solved as it keeps on happening).

 

[quarella]

I know...I just don't think they should be allowed in their present form because normal sized adults (I'm guessing you are maybe a little on the slim side?) don't fit them properly and therefore cannot use the seat belt safely. They are essentially a safer replacement to the old practice of putting 3 schoolchildren on a 2 seat bench (or as you say deckers).

An easy fix would be to keep them on school work and have 2-3 rows of 2+2 at the front for any teachers etc. (Though usually they are only 5 across at the back with no aisle as most other coaches are so if you need a bit of width that can be an option).

Re the exit...then a row of 2 (opposite 2 kid-seats) there as well! (If it's at the back the back row is typically normal width anyway, I never saw one with 6 across at the back).

I consider myself to be a normal sized adult definitely not on the slim side and able to wear the seat belt provided without difficulty, as were the other adults on board of various shapes and sizes. This has only been with one operator so perhaps I have struck lucky with their choice of seat supplier. Teachers/Leaders are there to supervise. Not something that can be done from with your suggestion of two rows of 2+2 at the front.

By not using these vehicles, at least during unplanned line closures will sometimes mean a longer wait for alternative transport as operators are not going to go out and buy standard vehicles in case the railway phones. Also is it preferable to have a high capacity vehicle on site around 0900 after a school run or wait another hour for them to go back to the depot and pick up a standard vehicle, subject to one being available. Perhaps this will cease to be a problem in coming years in most areas with accessibility requirements and the 15m coaches now permitted carry 65 passengers in 2 + 2 seating.

For all the objections to Rail Replacement found on this forum perhaps the Conditions of Travel should be changed so if a line is closed the passenger has to make their own arrangements.

 

[RJ]

For all the objections to Rail Replacement found on this forum perhaps the Conditions of Travel should be changed so if a line is closed the passenger has to make their own arrangements.

I'm one of the few people who loves line closures as rail replacement = £££s and a good bit of fun on the buses at the weekend. I write reviews of every route I drive.

But even I recognise that the greater majority of people quite justifiably hate rail replacement services. Transport in itself is not something people want to spend time on. Buses are slow and generally less comfortable than trains. Some TOCs only specify "double decker" or "single decker" with no further qualifiers so you can get anything in any physical condition turn up - the concept of a 3+2 bus is pretty mortifying! Then you have the drivers who get lost and fail to pick up their passengers because they don't know where the designated bus stop is for the station. I work at a station but you'll NEVER see me working on a day when buses replace trains as it's complete and utter pot luck when, or if they turn up and you spend the whole day dealing with upset passengers.

As a driver it's pretty common to have requests from controllers to let other buses follow you as they don't know the way - timetable goes out of the window as this slows both buses down and one won't be running in their own slot.

Search Twitter for "rail replacement" or "replacement bus" and you'll rapidly get a picture of what people go through with them. There are countless variations of the "Four word horror story: Rail Replacement Bus Service" tweet. They're a necessary evil and people will always quite legitimately complain about them!

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm one of the few people who loves line closures as rail replacement = £££s and a good bit of fun on the buses at the weekend. I write reviews of every route I drive.

But even I recognise that the greater majority of people quite justifiably hate rail replacement services. Transport in itself is not something people want to spend time on. Buses are slow and generally less comfortable than trains. Some TOCs only specify "double decker" or "single decker" with no further qualifiers so you can get anything in any physical condition turn up - the concept of a 3+2 bus is pretty mortifying! Then you have the drivers who get lost and fail to pick up their passengers because they don't know where the designated bus stop is for the station. I work at a station but you'll NEVER see me working on a day when buses replace trains as it's complete and utter pot luck when, or if they turn up and you spend the whole day dealing with upset passengers.

As a driver it's pretty common to have requests from controllers to let other buses follow you as they don't know the way - timetable goes out of the window as this slows both buses down and one won't be running in their own slot.

Search Twitter for "rail replacement" or "replacement bus" and you'll rapidly get a picture of what people go through with them. There are countless variations of the "Four word horror story: Rail Replacement Bus Service" tweet. They're a necessary evil and people will always quite legitimately complain about them!

It is worth just bearing in mind that some rail replacement jobs are much better handled than others. This comes down to who is organising it on behalf of the TOC and who is co-ordinating it at passenger level. I'm not going to mention names but I'm sure a few will recognise the better ones out there.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm surprised that some drivers (or their controllers) haven't done their homework and don't know their way. RJ refers to timetables going out of the window so these must be planned, not ad hoc emergency replacements.

How hard is it to drive the route beforehand, produce a crib sheet / sketch map and brief the drivers before they start? Is the work so price-sensitive that spending time doing this makes a bus company's quote uncompetitive?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm surprised that some drivers (or their controllers) haven't done their homework and don't know their way. RJ refers to timetables going out of the window so these must be planned, not ad hoc emergency replacements.

How hard is it to drive the route beforehand, produce a crib sheet / sketch map and brief the drivers before they start? Is the work so price-sensitive that spending time doing this makes a bus company's quote uncompetitive?

Yes is the answer. I’ve worked for bus companies who have lost work for being £1 dearer on a quote.

Don’t forget, it’s not always local companies on the work either. If we had coaches doing jobs elsewhere & Rail Replacement Work came in that was near there, they’d bid, as the coaches and drivers were there, so could be bid cheaper. But the drivers don’t know the area & local stations.

 

[joncombe]

I had some experience of the SWR rail replacements at the weekend between Woking and Basingstoke. The bus I got (from Winchfield) arrived early, had no sticker in the window to say where it was going or that was a rail replacement and even the station manager (I assume) didn't know either so we just had to ask the driver where he was going. It was a coach, but it left almost 10 minutes early so I would not have been impressed if I'd arrived a little later and missed it because it left early. I got the impression the driver had just been given a list of stations to stop at, but no actual timetable to adhere to. However I was impressed with the station manager who was waiting outside, helping passengers buy tickets from tje machine and directing them where to go. Often I find passengers are just left to their own devices.

The next day I noticed that they were using Stagecoach double deckers on the non-stop runs between Woking and Winchester along the M3. It seemed odd that they seemed to have the coaches operating the local stopping service whilst the double deckers buses were on the motorway, which they are not well suited to in my opinion. I wonder if the use of Stagecoach buses would continue now it's not Stagecoach running the franchise - but it seems they will.

 

[Blindtraveler]

That's a bit of a sad state of affairs with drivers getting lost etc on the gwr replacements.

On the subject of ticketing I wonder if northern will do anything to enforce this on the extensive bustitution between Blackpool and Preston during the forthcoming closure

 

[RJ]

How hard is it to drive the route beforehand, produce a crib sheet / sketch map and brief the drivers before they start? Is the work so price-sensitive that spending time doing this makes a bus company's quote uncompetitive?

Very, believe it or not. From my experience of London area rail replacements;

• Some drivers cannot, or will not work with a map. Either they can't read one or claim it's unsafe to use one whilst driving.
• Some drivers who participate in midweek route learning sessions don't memorise the route and by the weekend, have forgotten what they were shown.
• Some drivers get lost even when they have a pilot/navigator on board showing them the route.
• Some drivers drive three full round trips with a pilot and after that, still aren't confident enough to drive without one.

Route learning sessions are expensive. It requires drivers to be pulled out on weekdays, which costs money and relies on them being free to attend. Then there's the issue of the effectiveness of it.

Maps, crib sheets, videos, pilots, route learning, sign posts etc. can be provided, but some drivers simply can't remember routes without a lot of assistance. There are drivers out there who are well equipped to do rail replacement, but there's a shortage and are often in hot demand. Once you get over the hurdle of finding people that can drive, it then has to be hoped that they can respect the timetable and interact with the passengers. I respect timetables as much as possible but some are hopelessly unrealistic!

It's down to the bus operators to discriminate as to who they allow to do rail replacement, rather than letting anyone on their books do it. But it's often a case of getting any bum on a seat and collecting the money from the client. I once did one monster of a route - Victoria to East Croydon, all stops via Streatham Common. No route learning was provided, but I know the roads well so the map was sufficent for stop details. I was asked to lead four buses at once from another operator to East Croydon - those guys were being paid £22 an hour to tell the controller that they weren't using the maps or going out without having someone to follow. In the other direction, buses were crawling in convoys of 3-6. Needless to say the 10 minute headway was a myth and I got a lot of stick from angry passengers and station staff along the way because of the 60 minute gap ahead of me!

 

[RJ]

It is worth just bearing in mind that some rail replacement jobs are much better handled than others. This comes down to who is organising it on behalf of the TOC and who is co-ordinating it at passenger level. I'm not going to mention names but I'm sure a few will recognise the better ones out there.

Very true, I've seen some jobs that are run professionally. But it can be very hit and miss. Even some of the most respectable operators have drivers that play up. Once such supplied the standby buses for a job and when one was called on to do a trip, the driver announced he didn't actually know the route and I was asked to lead him for a round trip.

 

[Dai Corner]

Thanks for the insights RJ.

I might just learn to drive a bus. £22 an hour for some occasional weekend work would be a welcome top-up for my pension.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the insights RJ.

I might just learn to drive a bus. £22 an hour for some occasional weekend work would be a welcome top-up for my pension.

You do find a lot of coach drivers to be older - this could well be why.

 

[RJ]

Thanks for the insights RJ.

I might just learn to drive a bus. £22 an hour for some occasional weekend work would be a welcome top-up for my pension.

That kind of money is only paid by London service bus operators who need to entice their full time staff to take on the rail replacement duties. A lot of companies will offer half that. There's a general reluctance from London service drivers who don't want to risk having an incident which gets them pulled into the office and their record marked.

When I worked for Metroline, there was a flat minimum pay of £180 for a rail replacement shift. For Stagecoach I hear it's £200. The hourly rate tends to be in the £16-£22 region. I hear Arriva London force the shifts onto spare turn drivers for no premium.

There are vacancies out there with Go-Ahead and Sullivan Buses for rail replacement drivers, they pay in the region of £15 to £17. Or you can go with agencies for £11-£13.

 

[Dai Corner]

That kind of money is only paid by London service bus operators who need to entice their full time staff to take on the rail replacement duties. There's a general reluctance from drivers who don't want to risk having an incident which gets them pulled into the office and their record marked.

When I worked for Metroline, there was a flat minimum pay of £180 for a rail replacement shift. For Stagecoach I hear it's £200.

It would probably be less here in Wales. Normal bus driving is not much over minimum wage.

 

[onlinespotting]

Slightly off topic, do the permanent bus replacements in Staffordshire, in place until Norton Bridge closes in March 2019, actually link with trains/other buses? There is at least one bus each way from Hanley bus station that is all stations stoke - Stafford