Rail Replacement Bus Services

[MedwayValiant]

All TOCs have a contract with an external company to provide their road transport, although in the cases where the TOC is also a bus operator it may be another division of the same larger company. I don't know if things are different in the south, but elsewhere with planned engineering work it would be normal for the company contracted to provide the rail replacement services to have at least one co-ordinator positioned at stations where there is an intended switch between bus and train.

It's broadly similar on Southeastern, certainly. On the Chatham Main Line at least - not sure about the rest of Southeastern - the lead bus contractor is Go Ahead London. But many of the actual vehicles are sub- (or in some cases sub-sub-) contracted.

That may be because Go Ahead London doesn't have enough spare buses to operate the whole service itself. It may be because it's cheaper to hire in buses from smaller operators who probably don't pay their drivers as much as Go Ahead London does. Maybe a bit of both.

The most common bus replacement route on the Chatham Main Line is Meopham to Gillingham. When it's that, there is a bus supervisor in evidence at Gillingham (he's a grumpy so-and-so, but he's in evidence), and there are always railway staff around. At the Meopham end there is only a bus supervisor, no railway staff.

In between, there is usually a member of railway staff at the bus stop at Chatham station, but the railway staff at Rochester stay in the station. This is not ideal, and neither indeed is the location of the bus stop at Rochester (it's across a busy road from the station, and the nearest pedestrian crossing is several minutes walk away).

The most recent time it all went wrong for me, the bus came from a small operator who was probably a sub-sub-contractor. The vehicle was rickety, the driver didn't know the way, and the railway staff were decidedly unhelpful.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's broadly similar on Southeastern, certainly. On the Chatham Main Line at least - not sure about the rest of Southeastern - the lead bus contractor is Go Ahead London. But many of the actual vehicles are sub- (or in some cases sub-sub-) contracted.

That may be because Go Ahead London doesn't have enough spare buses to operate the whole service itself. It may be because it's cheaper to hire in buses from smaller operators who probably don't pay their drivers as much as Go Ahead London does. Maybe a bit of both.

The most common bus replacement route on the Chatham Main Line is Meopham to Gillingham. When it's that, there is a bus supervisor in evidence at Gillingham (he's a grumpy so-and-so, but he's in evidence), and there are always railway staff around. At the Meopham end there is only a bus supervisor, no railway staff.

In between, there is usually a member of railway staff at the bus stop at Chatham station, but the railway staff at Rochester stay in the station. This is not ideal, and neither indeed is the location of the bus stop at Rochester (it's across a busy road from the station, and the nearest pedestrian crossing is several minutes walk away).

The most recent time it all went wrong for me, the bus came from a small operator who was probably a sub-sub-contractor. The vehicle was rickety, the driver didn't know the way, and the railway staff were decidedly unhelpful.

As you say, it will be a mix. GoAhead will only have a few spare buses - and drivers, so at times of shortage/other commitments, or a large scale requirement, they will hire in other operators. I can't see any realistic alternative.

 

[PHILIPE]

I've seen Tweets from passengers who have missed a replacement bus due to the bus stopping at a location other than the one advertised, i.e. round the corner, opposite side of road than the stop published.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I think that it's fair to say that there are two distinct types of Rail Replacement Buses, and the service that is provided is often reflected by this.

There's the planned service, such as when the Severn Tunnel was shut and buses ran between Newport and Bristol Parkway; and there's the unplanned service, i.e. when there's a problem on the line which necessitates an emergency replacement.

When the Severn Tunnel was shut - and, since then, when the electrification works have been in progress in the Newport and Cardiff areas - there were a lot of buses and quite a few staff at Newport station. In fact, there were often more buses than people, and some of them didn't seem to go anywhere!

The confusing part was where the buses actually came from. As stated elsewhere, there were some from Leeds and Leicester, but these were both First Group companies and I guess that the contract was administered by First, although I'm not sure about that.

The staff seemed to be in charge and to know what they were doing. There looked to be good liaison between the platform staff and the staff outside the station looking after the buses, so this worked pretty well. I'm not sure what timetable they were working to, though, as there didn't seem to be anything obviously on display. However, on a later occasion, (Christmas) I did see a timetable of sorts in the bus shelter outside the station, so they obviously had something arranged.

The other type is when something happens and buses have to be arranged at short notice. I would try to be understanding when that happens, because it would be difficult to get buses at short notice, together with staff to do the various jobs that need to be done. It seems to me that the major problem when that happens is that the people on the ground don't know how long the problem is going to last. This is possibly because no-one else knows or even because they haven't been told; there's not very much they can do in those circumstances.

 

[infobleep]

The problem can be replacement bus timetables are generally scheduled so that the bus does meet the train but due to a wide variety of factors get bus can run late. The problem being the train will still have to depart on time in order to keep its path further down.

Well Govia Thameslink Railway seemed to be able to path Thameslink services from Brighton via Redhill, which in some cases resulted in 20 minute delays as it also stopped there but then normally doesn't. So it is possible to make changes if they really wanted to. The thing is they don't always want to, for whatever reason.

Yes it might lead to other issues but it is possible as GTR have proven.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The train company could not possibly have this amount of staff, let alone any spare staff going around sitting on rail replacement buses just incase it might miss a connecting train.

Also and to make it even more confusing you may have different train operating companies using different bus companies from one shared station to the other shared station as is often the case when the South Wales Main Line is closed for engineering works. That also reflects frequency levels as well.

Also what does someone consider a low frequency train service? Is it based on what the normal train service is ? Is it based on the amended train service ? Is it based on location ?

I don't know what is considered a low frequency service but when there is engineering works on a Sunday, Godalming and Farncombe get a bus every 30 minutes. When trains run its just once an hour!

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think that it's fair to say that there are two distinct types of Rail Replacement Buses, and the service that is provided is often reflected by this.

There's the planned service, such as when the Severn Tunnel was shut and buses ran between Newport and Bristol Parkway; and there's the unplanned service, i.e. when there's a problem on the line which necessitates an emergency replacement.

When the Severn Tunnel was shut - and, since then, when the electrification works have been in progress in the Newport and Cardiff areas - there were a lot of buses and quite a few staff at Newport station. In fact, there were often more buses than people, and some of them didn't seem to go anywhere!

The confusing part was where the buses actually came from. As stated elsewhere, there were some from Leeds and Leicester, but these were both First Group companies and I guess that the contract was administered by First, although I'm not sure about that.

The staff seemed to be in charge and to know what they were doing. There looked to be good liaison between the platform staff and the staff outside the station looking after the buses, so this worked pretty well. I'm not sure what timetable they were working to, though, as there didn't seem to be anything obviously on display. However, on a later occasion, (Christmas) I did see a timetable of sorts in the bus shelter outside the station, so they obviously had something arranged.

Sadly not all planned replacement buses end up so great! Certainly I agree, when the Severn Tunnel is shut First usually do a pretty good job. But try using the "planned" replacement buses on the South Wales Valley lines (especially since your username suggests you are close!). No where near the same quality of planning or service.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Merseyrail Electric trains are certainly NOT waiting for connecting buses during the loop line closure. Tonight I arrived at St Georges Hall to catch the 2011 bus to Birkenhead Central which is ADVERTIZED to connect with the 2028 train to Ellesmere Port.

The bus arrived at SGH five or more minutes late, but rather than speed it on its way, the army of staff on the roadside insisted on inspecting the tickets of all the 50 or so passengers waiting to board. As a result the bus was further delayed and arrived at 2029. Despite being the first off, my train had gone and I had to wait 29 mins for the next one.

The RR bus timetable is clearly a joke. If the buses cannot keep time on a quiet Saturday evening when there is next to no road & tunnel traffic, what hope is there when it is busy? Even if the bus had arrived at its scheduled time of 2023, I doubt whether 50 people could have got off and down to the platform in 5 minutes.

Missing a train probably doesn't matter to people living north of Hooton inside Merseyside county as they run every 15 mins. But for those of us on the Ellesmere Port and Chester branches, it adds another 30 minutes to an already extended journey. ME clearly only care about people who live in their home county.

Tonight it took me 1 hr 12 mins from Lime Street to Little Sutton, 2 hrs 15 mins from Manchester and 4 hrs 30 mins from a suburb of Rochdale, catching the first available bus/tram/train on each occasion! I could have driven it in little over an hour.

At the risk of being blackballed from railway circles, I think I may be defecting to the Stagecoach no 1 bus until the engineering works are complete. It is faster, more reliable and as a pensioner, I don't have to pay.

 

[Robertj21a]

Merseyrail Electric trains are certainly NOT waiting for connecting buses during the loop line closure. Tonight I arrived at St Georges Hall to catch the 2011 bus to Birkenhead Central which is ADVERTIZED to connect with the 2028 train to Ellesmere Port.

The bus arrived at SGH five or more minutes late, but rather than speed it on its way, the army of staff on the roadside insisted on inspecting the tickets of all the 50 or so passengers waiting to board. As a result the bus was further delayed and arrived at 2029. Despite being the first off, my train had gone and I had to wait 29 mins for the next one.

The RR bus timetable is clearly a joke. If the buses cannot keep time on a quiet Saturday evening when there is next to no road & tunnel traffic, what hope is there when it is busy? Even if the bus had arrived at its scheduled time of 2023, I doubt whether 50 people could have got off and down to the platform in 5 minutes.

Missing a train probably doesn't matter to people living north of Hooton inside Merseyside county as they run every 15 mins. But for those of us on the Ellesmere Port and Chester branches, it adds another 30 minutes to an already extended journey. ME clearly only care about people who live in their home county.

Tonight it took me 1 hr 12 mins from Lime Street to Little Sutton, 2 hrs 15 mins from Manchester and 4 hrs 30 mins from a suburb of Rochdale, catching the first available bus/tram/train on each occasion! I could have driven it in little over an hour.

At the risk of being blackballed from railway circles, I think I may be defecting to the Stagecoach no 1 bus until the engineering works are complete. It is faster, more reliable and as a pensioner, I don't have to pay.

Are you writing to Merseyrail to highlight the problem ?

 

[MaxB]

Really depends how late the bus was - maybe it had waited for a delayed train earlier. Was there any wireless comms available to let the station know what was happening? How long would it have been for all the passengers to transfer from bus to platform to train? What would be the impact of the delay? Doesn't sound very clever, but I wasn't there.

 

[Tio Terry]

I caught a Rail Replacement Bus today, from Raynes Park to Clapham Junction. Short wait in the rain at Raynes Park and there seemed to be as many non train travellers using the service as there were train travellers. I guess it's difficult to control such things when there are quite a lot of people trying to pile on the bus and the bus company get paid whoever gets on.

 

[infobleep]

Today there is a bus every 15 minutes from Three Bridges to Balcombe and no doubt one every 15 minutes from. Balcombe to Three Bridges. Does Balcombe need a 15 minute frequency when usually it only gets one train an hour off peak?

Would it be possible to run the buses on a similar basis to the trains. So if there is a Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill and Brighton service it stops at those stations only and if there was a Hassocks and Brighton only service, it stopped at those only?

It seems to me that you either get a fast service to the final destination or an all stations stopping and nothing in between.

According to the live departure boards buses are stopping at Preston Park but if I try to look up Redhill to Preston Park on the online journey planner, nothing comes up except for those where you have a long wait overnight. Yesterday it couldn't find anything at all.

 

[infobleep]

Today if one was travelling from Reading to Hassocks, they would start their journey with a bus and finish it with a bus, with a train in between, unless they went via Clapham Junction. Not often I come across both sections of line being closed the same day.

 

[infobleep]

One advantage to getting on the all stations to Brighton stopper service from Three Bridges. It's a Brighton and Hove Go Ahead bus so it has free WiFi on board. That's better than the train service. I don't know if the fast Three Bridges to Brighton only coaches have on board WiFi.

 

[Robertj21a]

Today there is a bus every 15 minutes from Three Bridges to Balcombe and no doubt one every 15 minutes from. Balcombe to Three Bridges. Does Balcombe need a 15 minute frequency when usually it only gets one train an hour off peak?

Would it be possible to run the buses on a similar basis to the trains. So if there is a Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill and Brighton service it stops at those stations only and if there was a Hassocks and Brighton only service, it stopped at those only?

It seems to me that you either get a fast service to the final destination or an all stations stopping and nothing in between.

According to the live departure boards buses are stopping at Preston Park but if I try to look up Redhill to Preston Park on the online journey planner, nothing comes up except for those where you have a long wait overnight. Yesterday it couldn't find anything at all.

Presumably it's for the train operator to specify which bus route/stops are to be served.

 

[Welshman]

Presumably it's for the train operator to specify which bus route/stops are to be served.

It depends on what arrangement is made.

For example, during the recent bustitution between Chester and Llandudno Junction, Virgin Trains [which do not serve Shotton and Abergele] left it to ATW to provide the bus service, and they advertised the service as being all stops [ie. Shotton, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Abergele and Colwyn Bay].

Therefore ATW was solely responsbile for providing the buses and timetables, and presumably were recompensed by VT for carrying their passengers.

However, on the night, there was more than one coach available for each departure, and they were filled according to passenger demand. So the one I caught ran straight to Prestatyn. omitting Shotton and Flint [but running through it as it used the coast road rather than the A55.]

 

[infobleep]

Presumably it's for the train operator to specify which bus route/stops are to be served.

It is for the train operator to do so but I'm sure sure they they are doing it as they did. Maybe the only route to Haywards Heath by bus is by going passed Balcombe station so they might as we stop. Of course all trains pass through Balcombe station but don't all stop.

 

[Chrisgr31]

This past week there has been a Chalkwell coach parked up at Crowborough station every morning since Tuesday, and a GoAhead London double decker parked up every evening bar Friday and Monday. Do idea what there were doing.

Hams Travel, and LJ Edwards usually operate any emergency rail replacement buses with Crawley Luxury helping out on guard days prior to Christmas

 

[RJ]

I caught a Rail Replacement Bus today, from Raynes Park to Clapham Junction. Short wait in the rain at Raynes Park and there seemed to be as many non train travellers using the service as there were train travellers. I guess it's difficult to control such things when there are quite a lot of people trying to pile on the bus and the bus company get paid whoever gets on.

I've driven the Clapham Junction to Surbiton service and many other rail replacement bus routes for almost every TOC within the London area. It is often the case that people use rail replacement buses as free, express alternatives to the normal service buses. Impossible to police - even if TOCs did provide revenue staff, with Oyster and contactless valid on buses and trains, there is no way of telling who is a "non train traveller". Where there's no train service I think revenue staff are probably better placed helping out with customer service.

As for the running of the buses, I make a point of not working at the ticket office on days when it's replacement buses as the service quality is often shambolic. Buses don't show up for ages - then a load turn up at once as some of the drivers aren't capable of independent driving on rail replacement. There's not a lot I'd be able to do to help the rightfully irate passengers. Can't track the buses and even if it was possible, there's no guarantee they know how to reach the station.

I love Go-Ahead replacement routes, especially the long, all stops services. Recently driven London Bridge to West Croydon via Forest Hill and a couple of weeks ago, Victoria to East Croydon via Streatham Common which was a lot of fun given only a fraction of contractor drivers knew the route. On one trip I overtook 9 buses as there were several slow moving convoys with only the first driver knowing the way. Needless to say I picked up a lot of angry people who had been waiting a long time for a bus. Also done various Southeastern routes in the London area that run half hourly - I pride myself on running dead on time, not too difficult as the roads are a bit clearer out in the suburbs.

The problem in the London area at least is difficulties finding drivers who are capable of doing rail replacement. A lot of people need a proper session of route learning, which is impractical given the short term nature of the routes and resources required to do so. Some contractors see £££s on offer from TOCs/TfL and will chuck drivers indiscriminately on rail rep duties. I've seen a few break down, traumatised at how hard they've found it. It's one thing driving the same route day in, day out but quite another to take on something completely new with just a map. I've only been doing it for 5 years but seen many come and go and get banned for various reasons. Crashing buses into bridges is as good a reason as any.

Reliable drivers with good road knowledge, who can read a map, drive independently and refrain from running early where appropriate - and actually want to work weekends are hard to come by. That said there are a lot of really decent rail replacement drivers from both service work and private hire - just not enough to prevent the same horror stories and exasperated tweets appearing every weekend!

 

[sammyg901]

Is there a product in the market I wonder that could be a "bus-nav" - set up with the stations and times to be served, knows to avoid low bridges etc and plugged into Google traffic to dynamically reroute around traffic

Even better if it could be combined with a tablet display in the saloon for the passengers

This would also allow the buses to be tracked and therefore connections to be held if viable

This would drastically improve the quality of RRB operations

 

[Butts]

As I have mentioned on another thread since last September I have been on scores of Rail Replacement Bus Services between Falkirk and Edinburgh whilst the Upgrade Works are being carried out.

Not once have I been asked to produce a ticket.

Talk about.....

"I've (not) got a ticket to ride"

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Are you writing to Merseyrail to highlight the problem ?

Yes I am

 

[weastebusdepot]

Not once have I been asked to produce a ticket.

Talk about.....

"I've (not) got a ticket to ride"

Some people high up make a decision on whether the additional revenue gained by having staff selling/checking tickets at the door of the bus is more than the wages of employing them. It appears that sometimes the answer is yes and sometimes it's no.

A consistent approach would be useful though. Passengers who pay for expensive season tickets are understandably aggrieved when they overhear other passengers boasting how they got on for free.

 

[Bevan Price]

The problem can be replacement bus timetables are generally scheduled so that the bus does meet the train but due to a wide variety of factors get bus can run late. The problem being the train will still have to depart on time in order to keep its path further down.

That is a typical "railway manager" attitude - sod the passengers. On an hourly (or less frequent) service, trains should be required to wait at least 10 minutes for delayed buses. Alternatively, they should hire spare buses, and the delayed bus should have been sent onwards to London.

 

[Robertj21a]

That is a typical "railway manager" attitude - sod the passengers. On an hourly (or less frequent) service, trains should be required to wait at least 10 minutes for delayed buses. Alternatively, they should hire spare buses, and the delayed bus should have been sent onwards to London.

So other passengers have to miss their train connections ?

..".........the delayed bus should have been sent onwards to London" - Doesn't it depend on where you are ?.

What about the driver ? (route knowledge, legal breaks etc)

 

[Bevan Price]

So other passengers have to miss their train connections ?

..".........the delayed bus should have been sent onwards to London" - Doesn't it depend on where you are ?.

What about the driver ? (route knowledge, legal breaks etc)

1. Onward connections from delayed trains should also be held, if these connecting services are also hourly (or less). (And the TOC should not expect to have tiny 5 -10 minute turnround times at termini when rail replacement buses are operating on part of a route.)

2. If NR / TOC are going to inconvenience passengers they should make sure that they provide enough resources to minimise that inconvenience - and that includes getting enough buses & drivers.

Rail replacement bus operations are often made worse by making every bus call at every intermediate station, even if this involves tortuous routes through suburbs or country lanes. The smaller, less accessible stations should be served by separate minibuses (or taxis), whilst the "main" bus should call only at the busiest stations. (This does happen sometimes, but not often enough.)

 

[Robertj21a]

1. Onward connections from delayed trains should also be held, if these connecting services are also hourly (or less). (And the TOC should not expect to have tiny 5 -10 minute turnround times at termini when rail replacement buses are operating on part of a route.)

2. If NR / TOC are going to inconvenience passengers they should make sure that they provide enough resources to minimise that inconvenience - and that includes getting enough buses & drivers.

Rail replacement bus operations are often made worse by making every bus call at every intermediate station, even if this involves tortuous routes through suburbs or country lanes. The smaller, less accessible stations should be served by separate minibuses (or taxis), whilst the "main" bus should call only at the busiest stations. (This does happen sometimes, but not often enough.)

1. Probably unrealistic given the range of connections.

2. How do you know that there are insufficient resources? Congestion and accidents can happen at any time.

3. You haven't answered my point about the drivers themselves.

 

[jon0844]

Is there a product in the market I wonder that could be a "bus-nav" - set up with the stations and times to be served, knows to avoid low bridges etc and plugged into Google traffic to dynamically reroute around traffic

Even better if it could be combined with a tablet display in the saloon for the passengers

This would also allow the buses to be tracked and therefore connections to be held if viable

This would drastically improve the quality of RRB operations

This.

There must be enough RRB services to justify developing a system like this, helping a driver get from A to Z via the whole alphabet - and keeping to some sort of timetable in some cases.

The dynamic nature of the software would allow an operator to quickly adjust routes, and track buses, on the fly - and possibly convey information to passengers in a fully accessible way.

Make it part of a future contract and you'd get operators buying such systems in order to operate them.

I take my hat off to those drivers who can read their map and study any pace notes ahead of time (people who take pride in their work) but technology will help those top, not just the other drivers who see £££ signs and don't really care.

I've had mixed experiences of RRBs. I've been on services where drivers got lost, or had to reverse after trying to take a road with a width restriction. I've also been on services which were great and made me think 'if only this was a regular service, I might take it over the train!'. I do generally avoid travel where there are buses though, because they're often unpredictable.

 

[Segedunum]

Having used a London RRB from Teddington to Richmond i must say that I had a pretty shocking experience.

It stopped at the main road a good 10 minute walk away, and the bus rolled in late, with the driver declaring "Ladies and gentlemen, let's all work together because I don't know the route." to which everyone replied that they didn't know either. I ended up sat up front with GPS and Google Maps to keep him in check. He managed to miss a station by taking a turn too early before running around a roundabout twice and cutting across several lanes, nearly causing an accident in the process.

Reported to South West Trains who didn't seem all too concerned.

 

[RJ]

Having used a London RRB from Teddington to Richmond i must say that I had a pretty shocking experience.

It stopped at the main road a good 10 minute walk away, and the bus rolled in late, with the driver declaring "Ladies and gentlemen, let's all work together because I don't know the route." to which everyone replied that they didn't know either. I ended up sat up front with GPS and Google Maps to keep him in check. He managed to miss a station by taking a turn too early before running around a roundabout twice and cutting across several lanes, nearly causing an accident in the process.

Reported to South West Trains who didn't seem all too concerned.

I used to drive that route. Teddington is one of my favourite stops to serve - it involves a three point turn. Strawberry Hill is fun too with the narrow roads. Because of these two stations, it's the only rail replacement route in London I categorise as "difficult". Usually they form part of the New Malden to Twickenham route, which throws in the Kingston one way system, the complex manoeuvre to get around the Sainsbury's delivery lorry at Norbiton and the joy of squeezing into Twickenham station car park. The Strawberry Hill to Richmond section isn't challenging, as long as you know the way.

St Margarets is easy to miss for drivers not paying attention - I videoed a drive of the Twickenham to Richmond section once. Too much running time to St Margaret's but the pace picks up at bit north of there.

 

[Segedunum]

I used to drive that route. Teddington is one of my favourite stops to serve - it involves a three point turn. Strawberry Hill is fun too with the narrow roads. Because of these two stations, it's the only rail replacement route in London I categorise as "difficult". Usually they form part of the New Malden to Twickenham route, which throws in the Kingston one way system, the complex manoeuvre to get around the Sainsbury's delivery lorry at Norbiton and the joy of squeezing into Twickenham station car park. The Strawberry Hill to Richmond section isn't challenging, as long as you know the way.

St Margarets is easy to miss for drivers not paying attention - I videoed a drive of the Twickenham to Richmond section once. Too much running time to St Margaret's but the pace picks up at bit north of there.

Ah, so in essence he'd been thrown in at the deep end. I do remember one of the blokes looking over the whole operation at one station giving the driver an earful because he made a bit of a mess of the three point turn you mentioned and he was running around with "Not in service" on the display.

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