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Rail renationalisation- do you support it?

Do you think the railways should be renationalised?


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ChiefPlanner

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Making money how?? Carrying passengers?? To make a profit , they had to carry passenegrs and freight, which is what they do today.

The Victorian railway made most of it's money from freight - especially coal - well totally they did , with the exception of a large number of basket case branch lines which should never have been built. Interestingly - the private companies had a social purpose / conscience and ran (probably unrenumerative) services on Saturday evenings for leisure seekers (i.e drinkers) , without the guiding hand of today's DfT which seeks explanations for 3 or 5 min variations in journey times , outwith the franchise specification , and can we please have a derogation ?...

Today is hoplessly overegulated - think DfT / RSSB/ ORR etc - all of which add cost and give middle class people in warm offices , "work" - which is not particularly adding value. Some of them put there directly to aid privatisation ?
 
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ChiefPlanner

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The cost per passenger KM was much higher under British Rail, if we use the same argument here than it suggests that the reduction in costs will be reversed as well since you can't use the theory that something things will go back to the way they were before when it suits your agenda and they won't when it doesn't.


Can you prove that , please ?
 

Domh245

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@Railsigns, you appear to be arguing for a return to the old British Rail more than arguing for nationalisation. It is all well and good saying that in the good old days the group of railwaymen in charge of BR were given a lump sum of money and left to play trains, but that isn't what would happen today. Much like Brexit (oops!) nationalising the rail network won't return us to the "good old days" of BR with cheap tickets and empty trains, it'll be some voyage into the unknown where things may improve, they may stay exactly the same, or it may all go disastrously wrong in ways that we can't forsee in our wildest imagination.
 

F Great Eastern

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The cost per passenger KM was much higher under British Rail, if we use the same argument here than it suggests that the reduction in costs will be reversed as well since you can't use the theory that something things will go back to the way they were before when it suits your agenda and they won't when it doesn't.

Can you prove that , please ?

See here for overall subsidy
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/UK_total_rail_subsidies_1986-2015.png

And cross reference it with
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/GBR_rail_passengers_by_year_1830-2015.png

There's a chart somewhere showing per KM but you can see from those that whilst passenger numbers have grew, subsidy has fallen over the last number of years even if it did rise at first.
 
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Railsigns

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@Railsigns, you appear to be arguing for a return to the old British Rail more than arguing for nationalisation. It is all well and good saying that in the good old days the group of railwaymen in charge of BR were given a lump sum of money and left to play trains, but that isn't what would happen today. Much like Brexit (oops!) nationalising the rail network won't return us to the "good old days" of BR with cheap tickets and empty trains, it'll be some voyage into the unknown where things may improve, they may stay exactly the same, or it may all go disastrously wrong in ways that we can't forsee in our wildest imagination.

Okay, so what's a better alternative in your view? Sticking with the status quo of privatisation? I could maybe begin to understand that point of view if privatisation had delivered even a fraction of what the Tories promised it would, such as lower fares (they're higher now than under BR) and reduced taxpayer subsidies (also much higher now than under BR). And we'll sweep the £40+ billion added to the national debt by the privatised rail industry under the carpet, because the Tories never told us that would happen (BR wasn't permitted to borrow, so had zero debt). And the average age of Britain's trains is the oldest now since records began.

In short, we were better off with what we had before. Of course, no-one can say precisely what form the renationalised industry will take, but it cannot possibly be worse than what we have now, and the majority of the British public knows it.
 

F Great Eastern

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Okay, so what's a better alternative in your view? Sticking with the status quo of privatisation? I could maybe begin to understand that point of view if privatisation had delivered even a fraction of what the Tories promised it would, such as lower fares (they're higher now than under BR) and reduced taxpayer subsidies (also much higher now than under BR).

Subsidy per passenger journey is now lower than it was under British Rail and the trend has continued over the last few years as the statistics above prove - they are from the ORR and the DFT.

If you take account of inflation it's much lower.

And the average age of Britain's trains is the oldest now since records began.

Primarily due to errors by the government in passenger forecasting, cutting orders that TOCs wished to make, long drawn out rolling stock procurement processes, government indecision, electrification issues, and all these kind of things.

What does a train company do in the situation where the only thing it can do is keep old stock running to service demand or simply withdraw the stock and having a lower average fleet age but less capacity - would you be happy to see train lengths massively cut just so we could say we had a younger fleet - because that has pretty much been the only option a lot of the time.

In short, we were better off with what we had before. Of course, no-one can say precisely what form the renationalised industry will take, but it cannot possibly be worse than what we have now, and the majority of the British public knows it.

But I don't think we are going to go back to what we had before, because this is not then, it is now to put it quite bluntly, the DFT are not simply going to allow things to happen in the past and be hands off, it would be great if they were but as I said, it's not going to happen.
 

EM2

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Making money how?? Carrying passengers?? To make a profit , they had to carry passenegrs and freight, which is what they do today.
But they were not built as a public service, out of some altruistic benevolence. Owners had no qualms in shutting stations and lines that did not make money.
 

LLivery

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With the British Railways Board running the show within fiscal parameters set by Government. Until Brexit happens that would be illegal under European law. E.U. law dictated the separation of train operations from infrastructure which is why operations aren't as slick in Germany or other countries, as they once were. .

It isn't illegal under EU law as long as they are two legally separate organisations. Nothing is stopping both organisations being state run or one being under the control of the other. Use SNCF as a case study: SNCF Réseau division is infrastructure, SNCF Voyages is operations.
 

Railsigns

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Subsidy per passenger journey is now lower than it was under British Rail and the trend has continued over the last few years as the statistics above prove - they are from the ORR and the DFT.

The fact that "subsidy per passenger journey" is lower will be of no consolation to the average taxpayer, knowing that billions of pounds more in taxpayer subsidies are being poured into the railways each year now than under BR (even allowing for inflation), whether they use the trains or not. Presenting subsidy statistics in this way smacks of a feeble attempt to put a positive spin on the fact that subsidies are billions of pounds higher now than they were under BR. There are two further points to be made on this:

Passenger numbers are up, therefore revenue is also up. GB's railways must be the only industry where the law of economy of scale applies in reverse.

I'm suspicious about what counts as a "passenger journey" these days. A single journey with two changes made in BR days might now be counted as three journeys if three different TOCs are involved.

Primarily due to errors by the government in passenger forecasting,

I agree. This therefore is another argument in favour of renationalisation - less government interference. Let the railways be run by experienced railway professionals, at arm's length from government.
 

Domh245

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Okay, so what's a better alternative in your view? Sticking with the status quo of privatisation? I could maybe begin to understand that point of view if privatisation had delivered even a fraction of what the Tories promised it would, such as lower fares (they're higher now than under BR) and reduced taxpayer subsidies (also much higher now than under BR). And we'll sweep the £40+ billion added to the national debt by the privatised rail industry under the carpet, because the Tories never told us that would happen (BR wasn't permitted to borrow, so had zero debt). And the average age of Britain's trains is the oldest now since records began.

In short, we were better off with what we had before. Of course, no-one can say precisely what form the renationalised industry will take, but it cannot possibly be worse than what we have now, and the majority of the British public knows it.

I will admit that I don't particularly have any grand plans for how to improve the network beyond investing in it more - be that more subsidy or more infrastructure projects (upgrades and new builds) - but that is something that could be done under nationalisation or privatisation.

I'll have to disagree with you about "it can't get any worse" - if the DfT of today were in complete control of the railways I can certainly envisage things being much worse than they currently are. Although given that nationalisation would entail a change of government, I'll admit that won't necessarily be the case.

However the reason that I'm in the "Don't Know" category on nationalising the railways is because the only viable option for renationalising at the moment is Labour, but they seem to only be doing it ideologically, they don't actually have any plan for how to improve the railways beyond "nationalise it!". If they had a coherent plan for how to improve the rail network that involved public ownership, I'd enthusiastically back it, but they don't, so I'm not ideologically wedded to the idea of nationalising them.
 

F Great Eastern

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The fact that "subsidy per passenger journey" is lower will be of no consolation to the average taxpayer, knowing that billions of pounds more in taxpayer subsidies are being poured into the railways each year now than under BR (even allowing for inflation), whether they use the trains or not. Presenting subsidy statistics in this way smacks of a feeble attempt to put a positive spin

Jesus measuring subsidy on an overall figure without taking into account what that figure gives you is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard on this thread. Because what you get for the money you pay is very much how the value of something is judged. Price is what you pay, value is what you get. The only person using spin here is you to hide the fact that subsidy is going down whilst passenger numbers are going up.

I agree. This therefore is another argument in favour of renationalisation - less government interference. Let the railways be run by experienced railway professionals, at arm's length from government.

If the DFT are micromanaging stuff now when the companies are private and have no connection with the DFT, what makes you think that they are going to stop when both operator and the department are both part of the state even if they are at arms length, since at arms length is an awful lot closer to the DFT than the TOCs are now, yet the DFT still interfere.

I do not believe that putting everything back in public control and removing private companies will magically fix everything because I cannot see it happening the way you want it to and it's pie in the sky stuff that sounds good when you write it but I can't see happening - the argument that the public transport body are interfering too much so we should take the railways back into public ownership is fundamentally flawed.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Plenty of evidence around that BR - even in the early 1980's ran a tight ship - and was pretty efficient with dedicated staff and management - try looking at the various Monopolies and Mergers Reports on London and South East in particular. (as well as various benchmarking reports in detail - not just a couple of graphs)

What did for BR was various Government policy led strikes (think coal and steel for example) , macro economic disasters and the dead hand of Treasury and especially the remote DfT / Treasury / Policy wonks who had never actually done a proper job.

Cannot be bothered to engage elsewhere ......but for example BR attempts to obtain more HST sets for profitable use were stymied by non-commercial pen pushers in Marsham Street. (and more of that sort) - and the crippling quality of what became NSE was sorted by internal , visionary managers who got subsidy down to virtual zero. Not the sort of approach that entrepeurs from say Necker Island , or similar managed.
 

Marklund

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Plenty of evidence around that BR - even in the early 1980's ran a tight ship - and was pretty efficient with dedicated staff and management - try looking at the various Monopolies and Mergers Reports on London and South East in particular. (as well as various benchmarking reports in detail - not just a couple of graphs)

What did for BR was various Government policy led strikes (think coal and steel for example) , macro economic disasters and the dead hand of Treasury and especially the remote DfT / Treasury / Policy wonks who had never actually done a proper job.

Cannot be bothered to engage elsewhere ......but for example BR attempts to obtain more HST sets for profitable use were stymied by non-commercial pen pushers in Marsham Street. (and more of that sort) - and the crippling quality of what became NSE was sorted by internal , visionary managers who got subsidy down to virtual zero. Not the sort of approach that entrepeurs from say Necker Island , or similar managed.

I do believe the youngsters are fond of the gifs these days, so here's one for your post.
msy.gif
 

F Great Eastern

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I'll have to disagree with you about "it can't get any worse" - if the DfT of today were in complete control of the railways I can certainly envisage things being much worse than they currently are. Although given that nationalisation would entail a change of government, I'll admit that won't necessarily be the case.

But the SRA made a huge amount of mistakes with franchise letting even when it was under Labour control so it's not like it's just the DFT of today is the problem - the issues of their kind have been going on for about a dozen years now - there are examples under the SRA regime where TOCs costed a certain number of trains and carriages into their bids which won a franchise contest and right at the last minute the order was cut and later on the same TOCs were blamed by the same SRA when the trains were overcrowded.

I just cannot support renationalisation for a few reasons
a) I do not think there is a coherent plan for how it would work
b) I cannot see the DFT allowing it to be run at arms length and would simply gain more power.
c) The DFT have shown themselves to be completely incompetent

I am not totally against it and I have been in countries where it has worked very well but generally these are countries where the government has shown themselves to be competent to run a rail system and deliver infrastructure and projects - something that simply hasn't happened here and almost every single publicly handled project on the railways over the last number of years has been a complete shambles that the private operators have had to take the flack for.
 
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Railsigns

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Jesus measuring subsidy on an overall figure without taking into account what that figure gives you is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard on this thread. Because what you get for the money you pay is very much how the value of something is judged. Price is what you pay, value is what you get. The only person using spin here is you to hide the fact that subsidy is going down whilst passenger numbers are going up.

Okay, so let's suppose that someone comes up to you and says "I never travel by train but I'm a taxpayer and I'm not happy that taxpayer subsidies to the railways are three times higher now than under British Rail." If you then say to him "Ah, but subsidy per passenger journey is now lower than it was under British Rail", do you think his response will be "Well, when you put it like that, I'm absolutely fine with it and I hereby withdraw my complaint."?

Be honest now.
 

F Great Eastern

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Okay, so let's suppose that someone comes up to you and says "I never travel by train but I'm a taxpayer and I'm not happy that taxpayer subsidies to the railways are three times higher now than under British Rail." If you then say to him "Ah, but subsidy per passenger journey is now lower than it was under British Rail", do you think his response will be "Well, when you put it like that, I'm absolutely fine with it and I hereby withdraw my complaint."?

Price is what you pay.
Value is what you get.

Do you understand what the word value means

Be honest now.

The next thing you'll be telling me is that despite the population rising we shouldn't increase the spending on police, education of health because it involves a bigger hit on the taxpayer.
 

Railsigns

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I just cannot support renationalisation for a few reasons
a) I do not think there is a coherent plan for how it would work

Is there a coherent plan to make the present franchising model work? Every conceivable sort of franchise (short ones, long ones, big ones, small ones) has been tried and none of them has worked; every shape of franchise has its problems... too short to make investment worthwhile; too long to predict passenger numbers over the duration of the franchise, and so on...

b) I cannot see the DFT allowing it to be run at arms length and would simply gain more power.

It's a decision for government and the DfT will just have to lump it.

c) The DFT have shown themselves to be completely incompetent

Agreed, so let's get back to a railway run by experienced professional railwaymen.
 

F Great Eastern

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It's a decision for government and the DfT will just have to lump it.

In case you hadn't realised, the DFT is the government.

Agreed, so let's get back to a railway run by experienced professional railwaymen.

More pie in the sky stuff - do you really think that is what would happen - all that would happen if you started up an arms length company is that the people from the DFT would inevitably end up in senior positions in it because right now the DFT are acting on behalf of the government.

Again lots of good stuff in theo
 

cjmillsnun

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I just cannot support renationalisation for a few reasons
a) I do not think there is a coherent plan for how it would work
Hmmm. There wasn't a coherent plan in 1948, but by privatisation, there most certainly was. 4 sectors run as profit centres. It would now have to be 5 (Infrastructure would have to be within Chinese walls) but there was nothing wrong with the sectorised structure of BR
b) I cannot see the DFT allowing it to be run at arms length and would simply gain more power.
Why not? They did before. BR for the most part was run by Railwayman, with little direct involvement.
c) The DFT have shown themselves to be completely incompetent
True, but that is the case with the situation now as well.

The issue I have is that like before, they won't be allowed to borrow and their subsidy will be cut back. So whilst it could be very efficient, we would be back to the chronic shortage of funds.
 

Railsigns

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Do you understand what the word value means

I'll assume that was meant as a question, although I see no question mark.

Yes, I do. A person who never travels by train but is a taxpayer contributes more to the railways now than under BR, but sees no value whatsoever from doing so.

Be honest now.

Answer my question now (post #855).
 

F Great Eastern

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No it is not.

It is an arm of the civil service. The government are the elected officials in power.

The DFT is a DfT is a ministerial department of the government that is led by a government minister.

All of this is clearly outlined on the governments own website, maybe you should check there.

Also from wikipedia
The Department for Transport (DfT) is the government department responsible for the English transport network and a limited number of transport matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland that have not been devolved. The department is run by the Secretary of State for Transport, currently (since 14 July 2016) Chris Grayling.

Nobody said anything about the staff - I merely said that the DFT was part of the government which it is and it is run by a government appointment politician, whether you like it, try and spin it or use a strawman argument or not that doesn't alter the fact that it is

Anyway, I'm not going to argue anymore with those who resort to strawman arguments and disingenuous posting rather than a honest debate so that's me out of this thread.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Maybe someone ought to do an FOI question as to how many railway qualified people actually work for the DfT ?..

A pitifully low number I suspect ......(not aware of it - or the ORR - frankly being a "must work there organisation" for those with real railway knowledge - and more properly experience)

The number of properly qualified , commercial and railway operations / safety professions till in harness with experience of an unified railway declines by the month. My own cadre of ex BR Management Trainees - the class of 1979 - is now extinct - I am capable of doing more , but gave up being sick to death of the contractual railway we now have. Others still beavering away - cannot wait to get out.

There are of course , some good people around much younger than me - but they lack the culture of the old integrated railway. I wish them well.
 

coppercapped

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Since when has any private company ever put customers first? Profits come first, always.

If you were to 'privatise the whole lot', the first decision to be made would be "how quickly can we close all the loss-making lines, now that the taxpayer subsidies have disappeared?"
I have rarely read such an ignorant statement about the reason for being, and the motives of, private companies.

It is true that a private company has a simple purpose. It is there to make money for its owner or its shareholders or, in some rare cases, deliver to its shareholders some other defined aim. For example, Cadbury was privately held and had objectives other than just making a profit although, of course, it was only by making a profit that it could fulfil its philanthropic ambitions.

But in order to make money a company must supply goods or services, or a combination of both, which fulfil the requirements and needs of its customers. If it does not get the product right it will not be profitable and will cease to exist. For a product or service to be financially successful its designers must have a good understanding of its intended market; the costs of manufacture and distribution must be such that the product is affordable; it must be reliable - not only because it keeps the customers happy but because it reduces the drain on profits caused by guarantee claims. The product must meet all applicable laws and regulations.

Only if the company has got all this right will it make profits. Profits are the result of getting all the bits in the chain as close to optimum as possible and profits ensure the continued existence of the company and the jobs it offers. Profits come last, always.

Once they have been achieved than steps have to be taken to maintain them.

The second sentence is also nonsense.

It is known that not all railway passenger operations are profitable. Since the late 1960s there have been very, very few closures of railway lines and services because the public has made it known that it is prepared to pay for the continued operation of these services. The way the privatisation process was set up was to enable public money to be passed in a transparent manner (subsidies and premiums for the different service groups are public knowledge) to private companies to operate services on behalf of the state. The 'whole lot' has been privatised - and yet the services, rather than being closed down, continue to run.

Oh, and by the way. If there is only one monopoly employer of railway staff their pay will fall over time relative to those employed in the private sector. The fact that railway staff with specialised skills now command living wages and salaries is due to there being more than one employer. This is one of the reasons the railway costs more these days than it did when BR existed - you keep banging on about it but would you willingly accept the consequence of re-nationalisation?
 

Railwaysceptic

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Anyway, I'm not going to argue anymore with those who resort to strawman arguments and disingenuous posting rather than a honest debate so that's me out of this thread.

Railsigns has not deployed "straw man arguments and disingenuous posting" at all. He has reiterated the point that the taxpayer is pouring more money into the railways than was the case during nationalisation - and let no-one forget: John Major's primary justification for privatising the railways was that it would "once and for all get the railways off the taxpayer's back." He has also countered your assertion that the huge increase is acceptable because it is balanced by an increase in recorded passenger journeys by arguing that more passengers should mean more income at the ticket office which in other lines of business would enable a reduction in subsidy.
 

coppercapped

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Railsigns has not deployed "straw man arguments and disingenuous posting" at all. He has reiterated the point that the taxpayer is pouring more money into the railways than was the case during nationalisation - and let no-one forget: John Major's primary justification for privatising the railways was that it would "once and for all get the railways off the taxpayer's back." He has also countered your assertion that the huge increase is acceptable because it is balanced by an increase in recorded passenger journeys by arguing that more passengers should mean more income at the ticket office which in other lines of business would enable a reduction in subsidy.
There is an unspoken "all other things being equal" in your argument which otherwise I agree with - and which McNulty (remember him?) also made.

However "all other things being equal" is no longer the case. And it is these changes - legal, social and economic - which make it impossible to either roll the system back to being "nu-BR" or even sensibly being able to compare the situation now as it was then. "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there" is still very true.

Certainly mistakes were made along the way, both in the detail of some of the facets of privatisation and in the way that Network Rail lost control of its spending in the immediate aftermath of the Hatfield disaster. But this is what hindsight is for - to show up the successes and failures of one's earlier endeavours. It is always 100% correct.

Which is why this constant cry for nationalisation is a political issue pure and simple. It has nothing whatsoever to do with finding workable solutions to the issues of capacity, reliability, ticket pricing or extensions of the network - and none have been offered.
 
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