Rail prosecution

[Wayfarer123]

I received an email a few days ago from northern rail that they have been alerted to activity on my ticket purchasing history which warrants further investigation and have asked me to be interviewed.

I haven’t used the train since July nor have I ever been stopped or fined during any journeys.

I did previously commute by the train into work everyday and would buy a ticket everyday for the correct stops this was checked on the train and also at barriers when I arrived and never had any issues. I had been buying a new single ticket everyday instead of a return and then using the same return ticket back as this worked through the barriers and when the train conductor would scan it. Obviously, I completely understand this is wrong and was a stupid thing to do.

I can understand paying for those missed fares however I don’t want to have a criminal record or go to court? I’m really worried as it was multiple occasions if it’s going to be too serious for them to allow me to pay the fines?

I’m really unsure on what to do, I don’t know what evidence they have and for what occasions so not sure what I should respond or if I should at all? I’m very anxious about the situation which is my own fault but I don’t know how I will afford the fines let alone going to court

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

The email contents:

This office acts as the prosecuting authority for Northern Trains Limited.
We have been alerted to activity on your ticket purchasing history which we feel warrants further investigation. We would therefore like to invite you to an interview in relation to this.

The interview would be under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and can be arranged at a time and location convenient to yourself.

There is no assumption of guilt at this stage in proceedings as we are simply undertaking an investigation of what has been deemed, possible suspicious activity. Part of the investigation is questioning you about the activity and this interview must be done in a formal setting following legislation which would allow the content to be admissible as evidence at Court, if matters progressed to that stage. You are entitled to seek legal advice at your own cost and arrangement in relation to this matter and any Solicitor you instruct can attend the interview with you.

We would be grateful if you could please contact our Fraud Investigator, to make these arrangements.


If you do not respond to our correspondence by 25 October 2023 or you decline to be interviewed in relation to this matter, we will continue our investigations and may progress this matter by way of a private prosecution against you.


We look forward to hearing from you.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you copy-paste the contents of the email into the thread so we can see exactly what you are accused of? Eliminate any names/ID details etc.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Everytime a ticket is scanned a record is written, are you saying you bought a single each day and used it as a return?

 

[Anvil1984]

Everytime a ticket is scanned a record is written, are you saying you bought a single each day and used it as a return?

I’m reading it as they bought one “open” return ticket and used it multiple times whilst just buying new singles for the outward part

 

[Wayfarer123]

I’m reading it as they bought one “open” return ticket and used it multiple times whilst just buying new singles for the outward part

Yeah that’s right, sorry I didn’t make it clear

 

[swt_passenger]

AIUI the gates shouldn’t normally allow repeated use of an open return portion. Can they be set up to allow anything through?

 

[Haywain]

AIUI the gates shouldn’t normally allow repeated use of an open return portion. Can they be set up to allow anything through?

They can.

 

[swt_passenger]

They can.

Something of an own goal?

 

[northwichcat]

Something of an own goal?

When new ticket barriers have been installed train operators have admitted doing that, in an attempt to reduce queues as people get used to them. Once people get used to them, they are then set to reject invalid tickets.

From my experience GWR set them to a very strict standard that even rejects some uncommon valid tickets for manual inspection, plus refuses a valid break in journey at an intermediate station. Other operators don't seem to set them as strictly.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This is an approach that we have only seen from the railway in the last couple of weeks, so we can't tell you how it will turn out.

However, for individual instances of fare-dodging, the railway are generally willing to let offenders settle out of court for (broadly) the train fares dodged plus an admin fee in the low hundreds of pounds. If you think that they will take this approach you will want to co-operate, which would mean attending the interview and making full disclosure, in the hope that an out of settlement will be offered.

Against this, the letter is pretty clear that the railway are at least considering prosecution and are inviting you to provide evidence of what you did wrong. In law, you are not obliged to give evidence against yourself, so you might want to decline the offer of an interview. But it seems to me that this will more likely than not lead to you appearing in court, and that in turn could lead to conviction, a fine and costs to pay and a criminal record.

It's not an easy choice. Hopefully someone will be able to give a steer that can help you come to a decision.

 

[Haywain]

Something of an own goal?

That they can be set that way doesn't mean that they are. And it's not of any help to the OP either way.

 

[furlong]

Firstly, was any of this travel less than 6 months ago? If not, prosecution is much harder for them (but not impossible).

Secondly, can you confirm that you used e-tickets (not the cardboard rectangles) and you think there are examples of the same ticket being scanned on more than one day in a way that would be impossible if used correctly?

Note the letter says that they have looked at your purchasing history at this stage, not the scanning history - but they might of course examine that later. Prosecution might still be a bit complicated for them though.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm a little bit confused about what exactly you've been doing.

I had been buying a new single ticket everyday instead of a return and then using the same return ticket back as this worked through the barriers and when the train conductor would scan it.

I’m reading it as they bought one “open” return ticket and used it multiple times whilst just buying new singles for the outward part

Yeah that’s right, sorry I didn’t make it clear

It sounds as though the Anytime Return was being used across multiple days, effectively as a season ticket.
Where does the single ticket come in? Was this a short distance single ticket to get through the barriers at the start of the journey? Or was the single ticket for the complete outward journey (because the outward portion is only valid for 1 or 5 days but the return portion for 30)?

Obviously, I completely understand this is wrong and was a stupid thing to do.

You have comitted a criminal offence.

I can understand paying for those missed fares however I don’t want to have a criminal record or go to court? I’m really worried as it was multiple occasions if it’s going to be too serious for them to allow me to pay the fines?

Being blunt but you have evaded your fares on multiple occasions. It's Northern's decision how to proceed but ow serious do you think the level of offending should be before a case is sent to court?

A fine can only be imposed by a court as a punishment following a conviction. What you're actually seeking is an out of court settlement - this is where you pay Northern some money for the fares avoided and their administrative costs in return for them not prosecuting you. Out of court settlements are not normally offered to people who do not co-operate with investibations.

I’m really unsure on what to do, I don’t know what evidence they have and for what occasions so not sure what I should respond or if I should at all? I’m very anxious about the situation which is my own fault but I don’t know how I will afford the fines let alone going to court

This is a difficult one to answer. Fundamentally you are not required to incriminate yourself. It is for Northern to gather sufficient evidence that you have travelled without a valid ticket. They only need evidence of one single occasion to prosecute.

From what you've told us it sounds as though they have a fair bit of evidence against you - your ticket purchasing history and evidence of the same ticket being scanned on multiple days.

The interview would be under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

Personally I would not attend an interview under the PACE Act 1984 without legal representation. (This is an interview where it will start with you being told that 'you do not have to answer but it may harm your defence..... etc)

 

[Tallguy]

You are under no obligation whatsoever to attend a voluntary interview, particularly with a commercial organisation. The purpose of the interview will be to get you to incriminate yourself and provide them with the evidence they need to prosecute you. You may wish to seek legal advice from a Lawyer who has experience in this area, a number of firms have been named on this forum in the past. I am not legally qualified so do not take my comments as advice.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm a little bit confused about what exactly you've been doing.

I understand it as they purchased an open return from A to B. Thereafter just purchasing singles A to B and using the same return portion each day. How much money this actually saved depends on what A and B are

 

[Wayfarer123]

I understand it as they purchased an open return from A to B. Thereafter just purchasing singles A to B and using the same return portion each day. How much money this actually saved depends on what A and B

Welcome to the forum!

I'm a little bit confused about what exactly you've been doing.




It sounds as though the Anytime Return was being used across multiple days, effectively as a season ticket.
Where does the single ticket come in? Was this a short distance single ticket to get through the barriers at the start of the journey? Or was the single ticket for the complete outward journey (because the outward portion is only valid for 1 or 5 days but the return portion for 30)?


You have comitted a criminal offence.


Being blunt but you have evaded your fares on multiple occasions. It's Northern's decision how to proceed but ow serious do you think the level of offending should be before a case is sent to court?

A fine can only be imposed by a court as a punishment following a conviction. What you're actually seeking is an out of court settlement - this is where you pay Northern some money for the fares avoided and their administrative costs in return for them not prosecuting you. Out of court settlements are not normally offered to people who do not co-operate with investibations.


This is a difficult one to answer. Fundamentally you are not required to incriminate yourself. It is for Northern to gather sufficient evidence that you have travelled without a valid ticket. They only need evidence of one single occasion to prosecute.

From what you've told us it sounds as though they have a fair bit of evidence against you - your ticket purchasing history and evidence of the same ticket being scanned on multiple days.


Personally I would not attend an interview under the PACE Act 1984 without legal representation. (This is an interview where it will start with you being told that 'you do not have to answer but it may harm your defence..... etc)

Thanks for the response. So would my best option be to get a solicitor and attend the interview to try and reach a settlement?

Is it right that if I ignore the interview would it go to court or does that depend on the evidence they have?

 

[Hadders]

Yeah that’s right. The single ticket was £3 a day

Thanks for confirming.

Thanks for the response. So would my best option be to get a solicitor and attend the interview to try and reach a settlement?

An out of court settlement is probably your best outcome here.

As for a using a solicitor it depends on several factors like the cost, and how confident you would be in not inadvertently incriminating yourself if you attend an interview without representation. We have had reports of people being able to arrange favourable outcomes without the use of a solicitor, you really need to weigh up the risks and potential outcomes.

Is it right that if I ignore the interview would it go to court or does that depend on the evidence they have?

That’s the $64k question! You don’t know what evidence Northern have got. They’ve clearly got some evidence hence the initial enquiry. If your tickets are barcoded ones that are scanned then I’d say that they have strong evidence, if you use traditional credit card sized tickets then I’d say the evidence would it be as strong.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Yeah that’s right. The single ticket was £3 a day.

How much was the return?

 

[randyrippley]

Did you buy the tickets online, at a machine, or at a ticket office?
And did you pay by card or cash?

 

[Wayfarer123]

Did you buy the tickets online, at a machine, or at a ticket office?
And did you pay by card or cash?

It was on the Trainline app using card. I’ve only received an email but I’m assuming they’d be able to get my address and other details from the card transactions?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2023 ==

How much was the return?

A normal return was about £7 the open return that I used was £12.

 

[Deafdoggie]

So the issue is they will have a record of each time the return was scanned. Be it by barriers or guard. And they'll have a record of you only buying singles. All purchased on the same card through the same account.

 

[randyrippley]

So the issue is they will have a record of each time the return was scanned. Be it by barriers or guard. And they'll have a record of you only buying singles. All purchased on the same card through the same account.

Exactly.
A full record of purchases and use. Couldn't be much easier for them to make a case

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Couldn't be much easier for them to make a case

So why not put that case to the OP in the same way they would if apprehended by RPI?

 

[skyhigh]

So why not put that case to the OP in the same way they would if apprehended by RPI?

That is essentially what they have done, isn't it? Send an email asking them to come in for an interview. We've seen the same thing happen before where a long-term fare evader has been stopped by an RPI.

 

[Starmill]

I don't see how you could possibly gain anything from attending the interview. Whether you cooperate or not, you're likely to be facing a private prosecution for trying to avoid paying the correct fare, or worse for fraud (unlikely that though). Alas, I think the only proper solution there is that you need to pay for some legal advice on that front, explaining honestly what you did. Otherwise you can simply do nothing and wait.

 

[fandroid]

A normal return was about £7 the open return that I used was £12.

If the singles you bought were £3 (which is what you said in post #13), were you short-faring as well, or were these Advance Singles that cost less than half the cheapest return fare?

 

[Hadders]

My view is that Northern will probably settle if you co-operate with them.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

If you’re lucky, the very fact that you chose to buy e-tickets, not knowing that scans would be logged, may work in your favour. To my mind (and, let us hope, Northern’s), a “hardened fare dodger” of the type they’d want to throw the book at would have chosen to buy paper tickets instead (all of which would have been possible to buy from the machine at your home station, assuming it has one).

 

[jumble]

Exactly.
A full record of purchases and use. Couldn't be much easier for them to make a case

So the issue is they will have a record of each time the return was scanned. Be it by barriers or guard. And they'll have a record of you only buying singles. All purchased on the same card through the same account.

I think you are missing the fairly obvious point that Northern do not know who actually used the return ticket
An interview where the OP fesses up would fix this problem

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think you are missing the fairly obvious point that Northern do not know who actually used the return ticket

They do, however, have a reasonable assumption.

An interview where the OP fesses up would fix this problem

Indeed, but in the absence of a confession, if the matter went to court the railway could invite the magistrates/jury to conclude that the reason for multiple tickets from A to B but only one from B to A was that the same ticket was being used repeatedly from B to A. And unless the defendant (as they would be at that point) presented evidence to explain why another conclusion was appropriate it seems to me that the magistrates/jury would be able to use their experience of what it is reasonable to expect people to do to conclude that it was beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant had repeatedly used the same ticket from B to A.