Rail Operating Centres (ROC's)

[455driver]

Its more about gradients and curvature, I am a passenger jockey so it doesnt make much difference to me but the freight guys with 2000 tonnes on the hook really appreciate a signaller holding them back a bit so they can get a clear (and fast) run at any big hills rather than being given a run on the level and catching a stopper up at the bottom of the hill and so having to slog their guts out slowly climbing the hill.

Or stopping the freight in an earlier loop instead of the booked one at the bottom of a big hill so it can get a run up, although the signalman did get an O code because the freight was late passing the loop it was booked into.

Its the small things that can make a big difference.

 

[Tomnick]

Regulation is definitely an art form - experience and local knowledge helps when it comes to making decisions about running trains (particularly heavy freights) on tight margins when things are even slightly out of course. It's easy to just regulate to booked order, even if that means running a (late) heavy freight, virtually from a stand, just three or four minutes in front of a R/T class 1 passenger...

 

[455driver]

Regulation is definitely an art form

Which is best left to the local signallers with their local knowledge, not some poxy graduate playing trains 300 miles away.

 

[brianthegiant]

Its not just power failure though, what about a fire alarm going off, what about shift change over time (how many signallers will be on duty at the same time?).

In a previous thread on this subject, someone explained that the fire alarm sensors in ROCS flag a pre-alarm with a lower level of heat/smoke than will activate the full alarm. So the building manager can go and identify the "burnt toast in the kitchen" or whatever and clear the fault, thereby effectively eliminating false positives.

I would have thought the power system have a UPS with enough battery capacity to run critical systems whilst the standby generators are started up.

Many mention terrorism, but I think there are plenty of locations with much lower levels of security which a terrorist could target and cause similar disruption to part of a network. I wont suggest specifics for obvious reasons. Furthermore history indicates most terrorist groups which have targeted the UK have tended to target city centre locations with large numbers of people. The idea of maximum disruption for minimum civilian casualties doesn't seem to come into it.

 

[455driver]

You are advocating Automatic Route Setting Equipment (A R S E for short) which is a very appropriate acronym for it!

 

[Tomnick]

Which is best left to the local signallers with their local knowledge, not some poxy graduate playing trains 300 miles away.

My point exactly!

 

[455driver]

My point exactly!

I know, i was agreeing with you!

 

[Tomnick]

I know, i was agreeing with you!

I thought so...just checking . You're right with your freight example though - everything's got to be done with an eye on the TDAs. The easy option (pull off in booked order) is then the safe option - there might be a lot more delay in the end, but it'll just go down to 'following late'!

 

[455driver]

there will be a lot more delay in the end, but it'll just go down to 'following late'!

Exactly, the signallers should be allowed to regulate the trains to minimise the overall delay, some still do it and if ever I am allowed a run up the fasts in my little 455 (happened a few times lately) I dont hang around aided by the fact I know the clearance points for all the approach released signals especially the up fast to up slow crossover before Wimbledon. Please note I dont charge up to them expecting them to clear but I dont crawl up to them at 10mph from 500 yards out like some other driver do, its called route knowledge.

 

[Tomnick]

It all seems rather sensible nowadays - as long as we've not stuffed something by putting an early runner ahead of it (or made a really daft decision), we don't seem to get any trouble with O-codes. It's frustrating to watch a passenger approaching our area, stuck behind a late-running freight and gradually picking up more and more delay (passing loops on the way!). I'd like to think I'm better than that myself .

 

[Gareth]

What are the locations of the 14 planned centres and how are these locations, plus the bounds of their areas, decided?

EDIT: Actually, I've found a list of the centres...

Derby
Gillingham
Cardiff
Saltley
Edinburgh
Ashford
Didcot
Glasgow
Three Bridges (2013)
Manchester (2013)
Romford (2014)
York (2014)
Basingstoke (2015)
Rugby (2016)

Still, would be nice to see a map with all the areas on it.

 

[gnolife]

This might seem to be a stupid question, but is the Gillingham on in Kent or in Dorset?

 

[The Planner]

What are the locations of the 14 planned centres and how are these locations, plus the bounds of their areas, decided?

EDIT: Actually, I've found a list of the centres...

Derby
Gillingham
Cardiff
Saltley
Edinburgh
Ashford
Didcot
Glasgow
Three Bridges (2013)
Manchester (2013)
Romford (2014)
York (2014)
Basingstoke (2015)
Rugby (2016)

Still, would be nice to see a map with all the areas on it.

Saltley isn't going to be one and Rugby is 2015. Manchester won't be this year either I'd have thought.

 

[carriageline]

Gillingham, Kent.

Also, network rail recently released an article on signal boxes, there it said there will be 12 ROCs!

 

[Class377/5]

Gillingham, Kent.

Also, network rail recently released an article on signal boxes, there it said there will be 12 ROCs!

That become Kent was to have two, Gillingham and Ashford. Now the plan is for just one.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Rugby and Edinburgh already cover 100 route miles or more each, and include power and line control functions at the same location.
That's a good thing isn't it, compared to 20-odd individual boxes with limited range?
It's only scaling this up to cover the other routes in each area as well, many of which will be having new signalling installed anyway (eg Joint Line, Shrewsbury-Newport).

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Saltley isn't going to be one and Rugby is 2015. Manchester won't be this year either I'd have thought.

The West Midlands Signalling Centre is in Saltley, Birmingham. It's virtually next door to the old Saltley box and a few hundred yards from Landor Street depot, Saltley.

While it is probably important establish that the new box and the old one are quite different things, I think a lot of people will still informally refer to the new box as Saltley for years to come.

 

[swt_passenger]

That become Kent was to have two, Gillingham and Ashford. Now the plan is for just one.

Combining the roles of Ashford and Gillingham only gets us down to 13. Anyone know which is the other one on the list above which isn't happening?

 

[The Planner]

The West Midlands Signalling Centre is in Saltley, Birmingham. It's virtually next door to the old Saltley box and a few hundred yards from Landor Street depot, Saltley.

Yes, but the WMSCC isnt going to become a ROC.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Really? Wow. What are they going to do with it then? It seems like they have spent a huge amount of money on it over the past five years, was that just a temporary fix?

 

[edwin_m]

Remember all the systems in the ROC will be data-based and communications will employ secure multiplexing over a relatively small number of cables which will have backups run by different routes. So even if a ROC is totally destroyed, as long as spare hardware exists somewhere, in principle it's just a question of installing the backup of the data and connecting the comms links to get up and running again. Far easier than replacing a destroyed relay interlocking (never happened to a sizeable one that I can recall) or the hundreds of cables just outside one (which has happened, London Bridge I think).

I do agree however that the human issues with transferring control are far more difficult to overcome.

 

[carriageline]

That become Kent was to have two, Gillingham and Ashford. Now the plan is for just one.

How? both are built are they not?, and IIRC the Gillingham one has workstations init, and the Ashford one definently has? I know Gillingham is definetly built, it has been for a while, and there is workstations belonging to Ashford (NK), unless they ain't in the ROCs

 

[Class377/5]

How? both are built are they not?, and IIRC the Gillingham one has workstations init, and the Ashford one definently has? I know Gillingham is definetly built, it has been for a while, and there is workstations belonging to Ashford (NK), unless they ain't in the ROCs

Neither Gillingham IECC nor Ashford ASC were built as ROC's.

Gillingham is now going to be made the ROC and Ashford work load will transfer to either Gillingham or Three Bridges fully or partly to either.

The list of ROC was in the last issue of Rail;

• East of Scotland - Edinburgh SC currently
• East Midlands - Derby
• West of Scotland - Glasgow
• Western - Didcot
• Wales - Cardiff
• Kent - Gillingham
• Three Bridges - Sussex/Kent
• York
• Manchester
• Rugby
• Romford
• Basingstoke

There's your 12 ROC's. All up to Gillingham are open now with Three Bridges about to open shortly. York & Manchester open in 2014 with Rugby, Romford & Basingstoke all opening in 2015.

 

[The Planner]

Are the EMSCC in Derby and TVSCC at Diddlycot going to turn into ROCs then? as they aren't considered as such now I thought. Heard various rumours that Didcot isn't big enough as it stands.

 

[Tomnick]

Certainly (for now) the EMCC seems to be here to stay for a bit.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's clearly a very fluid sort of situation, the LNW route business plan published as recently as April (with the CP5 paperwork blitz) still had Manchester, Saltley and Rugby as ROCs, and the similarly dated Kent plan still referred to North Kent ROC at Gillingham and South Kent at Ashford (IECC)...

Four months later on and it seems completely different in at least those two areas...

 

[Bald Rick]

Gillingham and Ashford will both remain as Signalling control centres, but neither will officially be ROCs. EMCC and TVSCC both become ROCs and were built as such.

 

[swt_passenger]

Nevertheless, this extract from the Kent business plan does refer to Gillingham ROC:

Signalling migration
Gillingham Rail Operating Centre (ROC) and Ashford IECC are already constructed and contain signalling and control functions. This section
defines the signalling control areas at high level and highlights route boundary changes.
Gillingham ROC will see the migration of Rochester to Sittingbourne take place in 2015. The
remainder of the migration will take place from 2017 onwards, including some Ashford IECC
workstations moving into Gillingham ROC. Migration will be completed by 2019.
Ashford IECC will see the migration of Maidstone East and Folkestone East in 2016 and 2017
respectively, and the remainder of the route will be migrated from 2019 onwards.
etc, etc...

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... plans/kent and high speed one route plan.pdf

 

[Bald Rick]

Nevertheless, this extract from the Kent business plan does refer to Gillingham ROC:

indeed, and as you say, things change. But it's just nomenclature.