Rail North proposed future electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

Try looking at the first link you included in your quote.
As a comparison WAG (who are also proposing electrification and other rail improvements) had a budget of £65m for transport to cover the current 2 year period while the Sheffield city region will have a budget of £62.7m over 5 years.

That's roughly £300m over the north for the 5 years, to be spent on all transport schemes.
I guess that any of this spent on rail is over and above funding for NR and franchises.
If you look at the DfT links to recent approvals there are all on roads and transport interchanges.
I don't think much of this money will be spent on rail.
In any case, the projects will not cover electrification which is an HLOS/ORR domain, as is the Northern Hub.

The Welsh Government situation is broadly similar to the LEPs.
They do have a bit of scope to spend on rail (eg Ebbw Vale, Wrexham redoubling etc), but electrification is firmly a DfT area (lobbied hard by the WG).
Wales is also formally devolved with an assembly for scrutiny of spend, unlike English regions.

The current electrification programme in the north (NW and TP) is worth about £500m, and the Northern Hub is £620m
I don't see responsibility for that sort of money being devolved.

 

[Ships]

Just to be clear on this, the normal route for the aggregate trains from Peak Forest/Tunstead to Northwich is on the ex-MML via Chinley and the Disley tunnel to Cheadle Heath, then on to the ex-CLC line to Northenden and Skelton Junction. The alternative route via Great Rocks, Buxton and the ex-LNW line involves a double reversal at Buxton and another reversal at Stockport and so is only used for diversions. Although I read somewhere that NR is proposing to improve the track layout at Buxton and route more freight via the Buxton line so as to alleviate the bottleneck through Chinley for Hope Valley traffic.

I see that the text of the strategy document says that, in addition to the passenger route electrification shown on the map,

Optimistically this might be taken to include routes like Peak Forest to Chinley, New Mills to Hyde, Guide Bridge to Heaton Norris and maybe even Hazel Grove and Stockport to Northwich and Hartford Junction!

The authors of the report evidently have not taken on board the opinion of some members of this forum, expressed in another thread, that electrification of Sandbach to Mickle Trafford via Middlewich would have a better business case than Crewe to Chester.

The only time in the last few years the BEJ has been used for quarry traffic was during the renewal of dove holes tunnel. To facilitate this a temporary crossover was installed just outside the station (this has now plain lined as no one would pay to have it connected to the existing interlocking).

 

[swt_passenger]

That's roughly £300m over the north for the 5 years, to be spent on all transport schemes.
I guess that any of this spent on rail is over and above funding for NR and franchises.
If you look at the DfT links to recent approvals there are all on roads and transport interchanges.

What seems to be happening here is that a local authority body is simply providing a list of priorities, but at the end of the day it is DfT and NR who will organise and pay for most of this type of work and this sort of level of expenditure.

I'm not so sure about your comparison with road and other transport interchange projects though, because it is only rail that has 5 year control periods, and a HLOS/SoFA procedure, with a massive budget that is announced as a national total. When that gets confirmed (sometime next March) the overall sums will dwarf the typical road project allocations...

 

[krus_aragon]

These are:
1. Newcastle to Carlisle
2. Sunderland to York via Middlesbrough
3. York to Scarborough
4. Selby to Hull
5. Remaining parts of South TPE
6. Manchester Victoria to Leeds via Halifax
7. Remaining parts of Blackpool to York
8. Leeds to York via Harrogate
9. Barrow to Lancaster
10. Windermere to Oxenholme (Although I think this may now have been approved anyway.)
11. Liverpool South Parkway to Deansgate
12. Warrington Bank Quay to North Wales
13. Crewe to North Wales
14. Sheffield to Wakefield via Barnsley
15. Wakefield to Leeds via Woodlesford

(Not loading the pdf as I'm on my phone.) Is that list ordered by priority, or does it just happen to be in that order?

 

[Eagle]

It's not a list in the PDF, it's a map.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Newcastle to Sunderland is an unelectrified line as far as National Rail is concerned.

How easy would it be to convert it to the National standard? Obviously new metro stock would be needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I imagine this is down to local councils in Scarborough and Middlesbrough realising they are going to lose direct Manchester services due to not being wired so trying hard to get wired for longer distance services to be reinstated. If York-Middlesbrough was done then Middlesbrough-Sunderland would be a diesel island.

The Teesside to ECML line always seems slow to me. Maybe the track is worth upgrading.

 

[Greybeard33]

The only time in the last few years the BEJ has been used for quarry traffic was during the renewal of dove holes tunnel. To facilitate this a temporary crossover was installed just outside the station (this has now plain lined as no one would pay to have it connected to the existing interlocking).

Ah, thanks, those must be the diversions I was (vaguely) remembering. But I did not know about the temporary crossover.

The NR document I mentioned was the CP4 Delivery Plan - Route Plan 2009 for Route 20 - NW Urban. This said on p22:

We are looking at various options to provide
additional capacity on the network for freight
services conveying stone products from the rail
served quarries of north Derbyshire to terminals in
the Manchester area and elsewhere. Such a project
may also reduce service congestion in the Peak
Forest area and on the Hope Valley route, through
re-routeing of freight services. Alternatively, the
capacity freed up may be used to provide for further
freight traffic increases. A possible output is the
provision of direct access between Buxton Line and
both the Dowlow branch and the Great Rocks line,
through provision of a suitably positioned trailing
crossover on the Buxton line and a suitable
connection from the Great Rocks line. It is
anticipated that if this were pursued (subject to
business case) there would need to be an
upgrading of track condition on the Buxton line to
handle the additional traffic and provide for
linespeeds increases. The primary benefit of the
project will be the ability to convey additional stone
traffic, by rail, from north Derbyshire, primarily to the
Greater Manchester area.

I guess this project has since "gone on the back burner", since it is not mentioned in the CP5 plans.

 

[ainsworth74]

How easy would it be to convert it to the National standard? Obviously new metro stock would be needed.

Well I suspect that new overheads might be required. But either way I think the fact that you'll either need new or heavily refurbished Metro stock probably means that this is, unfortunately, dead until Metro need new stock anyway.

The Teesside to ECML line always seems slow to me. Maybe the track is worth upgrading.

Well it takes TPE 28 minutes to do the 20 miles to Northallerton so whilst it's not the fastest it isn't that slow either.

 

[CalderRail]

A few of the routes suggested for electrification seem odd priorities - half hourly routes like through Brighouse or Saltburn - Darlington or Wigan - Southport or Marple aren't important enough, but routes like Lancaster to Barrow (only an hourly service) are suggested. Could be for political reasons, to pacify those in a rural area (i.e. Barrow has nothing to fear from a "northern controlled" franchise)?

Brighouse - and for that matter all of Calderdale - has its business case for electrification significantly enhanced by being a potential relief route for TPE in the event of works or accidents.

 

[Haydn1971]

How large are the LEP budgets?

Government funding is only part of the story - The West Yorkshire ITA is bidding for £1Bn in private sector funding which is repaid through economic gains in the region - Add to that the similar transport funds for Sheffield City Region, Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire, Humber, East Yorkshire, North East. - that's potentially several £Bn's over the planed 10 year investment period.

Electrification of lines and cascaded London stock is part of the story, new stations, new rolling stock, new lines, tramways, Park & Ride, bus connections are all on the cards at this time. Projects will be part funded across several funding pots, including government budgets, infrastructure bids, investment funds, developers etc...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Government funding is only part of the story - The West Yorkshire ITA is bidding for £1Bn in private sector funding which is repaid through economic gains in the region - Add to that the similar transport funds for Sheffield City Region, Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire, Humber, East Yorkshire, North East. - that's potentially several £Bn's over the planed 10 year investment period.

Electrification of lines and cascaded London stock is part of the story, new stations, new rolling stock, new lines, tramways, Park & Ride, bus connections are all on the cards at this time. Projects will be part funded across several funding pots, including government budgets, infrastructure bids, investment funds, developers etc...

I wish I could believe it.
I don't understand the business model.
The Rail Strategy barely mentions funding (although it paints a picture of £50bn in benefits).
Given how hard it was to get single projects like Crossrail or Metrolink extension approved, how can a vague multi-billion scheme in the north stand a chance?

 

[D365]

Well I suspect that new overheads might be required. But either way I think the fact that you'll either need new or heavily refurbished Metro stock probably means that this is, unfortunately, dead until Metro need new stock anyway.

Replacement Metro stock should be due in about 5-10 years, I hear. Might a high-floor tram-train adaption be suitable?

 

[edwin_m]

Replacement Metro stock should be due in about 5-10 years, I hear. Might a high-floor tram-train adaption be suitable?

Quite possibly. If Greater Manchester goes for tram-trains the vehicle spec could be very similar, the main difference being 1500V instead of 750V as the DC voltage.

 

[Manchester77]

Would NR/DFT want Metros new stock to be voltage on the off chance they wire the section if line shared by Metro and Northern?

 

[HSTEd]

Probably, just on the off chance thta they want electric mainline trains into Sunderland.

(How about a Sunderland-London service via Newcastle?)

 

[merlodlliw]

For what its worth, The Secretary of State for Wales(Westminister) is pushing for Warrington/Chester/Bidston line electrics, he has his Constituency in Clwyd West which borders Wrexham.

Unlike the last Secretary, he is based in Wales and is keen on Railways,there was never a better time for a supporter who has the PMs ear.

 

[s'land]

Probably, just on the off chance thta they want electric mainline trains into Sunderland.

(How about a Sunderland-London service via Newcastle?)

What about Hartlepool and the like ie Grand Central, up the line speed on the Durham Coast line and you may have a viable diversionary route, indeed the Leamside Line wouldn't be needed at all, and at a stroke enable the T&W Metro be extended into washing Washington along the old Leamside Line.

 

[HSTEd]

What about Hartlepool and the like ie Grand Central, up the line speed on the Durham Coast line and you may have a viable diversionary route, indeed the Leamside Line wouldn't be needed at all, and at a stroke enable the T&W Metro be extended into washing Washington along the old Leamside Line.

That would cost a fortune and it would take so long that it could never really be a high quality diversionary route.

Converting the line between Sunderland and Newcastle to 25kV AC (with the extension over the part of the line not currently electrified) would allow Sunderland to get direct services to London that travel in a time that could possibly be competitive with changing at Newcastle.

 

[bluenoxid]

I wonder what the costs and implications would be for converting the Tyne and Wear Metro to 750V DC. It would allow them to access stock similar to other Light Rail systems in the UK.

I believe Dual Voltage is seriously on the cards for the Metro with the likely developments on the UK rail network.

 

[Bevan Price]

Just to be clear on this, the normal route for the aggregate trains from Peak Forest/Tunstead to Northwich is on the ex-MML via Chinley and the Disley tunnel to Cheadle Heath, then on to the ex-CLC line to Northenden and Skelton Junction. The alternative route via Great Rocks, Buxton and the ex-LNW line involves a double reversal at Buxton and another reversal at Stockport and so is only used for diversions. Although I read somewhere that NR is proposing to improve the track layout at Buxton and route more freight via the Buxton line so as to alleviate the bottleneck through Chinley for Hope Valley traffic.

I see that the text of the strategy document says that, in addition to the passenger route electrification shown on the map,

Optimistically this might be taken to include routes like Peak Forest to Chinley, New Mills to Hyde, Guide Bridge to Heaton Norris and maybe even Hazel Grove and Stockport to Northwich and Hartford Junction!

I read somewhere that one of the Tata (ex-ICI) plants at Northwich may be "under threat". If it were to close, that would have a possible impact on freight from Tunstead to Northwich.

 

[Greybeard33]

I read somewhere that one of the Tata (ex-ICI) plants at Northwich may be "under threat". If it were to close, that would have a possible impact on freight from Tunstead to Northwich.

Indeed, this proposal would undoubtedly reduce demand for limestone from the Peak District. But not eliminate it, as the production of soda ash would continue at Lostock, and sodium bicarbonate would still be produced at both Lostock and Winnington. According to the FT, Tata would import soda ash from the US - perhaps that might involve rail transshipment?

In any case limestone to Northwich is only one of a number of freight flows on the Mid-Cheshire line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed, this proposal would undoubtedly reduce demand for limestone from the Peak District. But not eliminate it, as the production of soda ash would continue at Lostock, and sodium bicarbonate would still be produced at both Lostock and Winnington. According to the FT, Tata would import soda ash from the US - perhaps that might involve rail transshipment?

In any case limestone to Northwich is only one of a number of freight flows on the Mid-Cheshire line.

Tata also takes coke from Hargreaves in Monkton, S Yorks, so that's another flow lost.
The FT article is behind their pay wall, but this one is readable: http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2013/oct/soda-ash-close.cfm

 

[s'land]

That would cost a fortune and it would take so long that it could never really be a high quality diversionary route.

Converting the line between Sunderland and Newcastle to 25kV AC (with the extension over the part of the line not currently electrified) would allow Sunderland to get direct services to London that travel in a time that could possibly be competitive with changing at Newcastle.

But if the line speed was upgraded as well, I think most of is either 60/70 mph, increase it up to 100mph, I think it would be viable.

 

[ainsworth74]

It would then have issues with pathing around the stoppers I'd have thought...

 

[59CosG95]

I wonder what the costs and implications would be for converting the Tyne and Wear Metro to 750V DC. It would allow them to access stock similar to other Light Rail systems in the UK.

I believe Dual Voltage is seriously on the cards for the Metro with the likely developments on the UK rail network.

Of course, if dual voltage didn't go ahead in the 3rd rail sense, maybe they could go for something similar to this...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sihltal_Zürich_Uetliberg_Bahn, where the pantograph is offset slightly to the side on metro trains, it could make for an interesting electric London-Sunderland service!