Rail North proposed future electrification

[northwichcat]

Rail North is the interim name of the organisation working to devolve franchising for rail from Whitehall to the North of England and on page 72 of their proposals for what should be included in the next franchise they show a map showing what lines they believe should be electrified.

These are:
1. Newcastle to Carlisle
2. Sunderland to York via Middlesbrough
3. York to Scarborough
4. Selby to Hull
5. Remaining parts of South TPE
6. Manchester Victoria to Leeds via Halifax
7. Remaining parts of Blackpool to York
8. Leeds to York via Harrogate
9. Barrow to Lancaster
10. Windermere to Oxenholme (Although I think this may now have been approved anyway.)
11. Liverpool South Parkway to Deansgate
12. Warrington Bank Quay to North Wales
13. Crewe to North Wales
14. Sheffield to Wakefield via Barnsley
15. Wakefield to Leeds via Woodlesford

 

[Eagle]

They also label Warrington BQ to Earlestown as a line they'd like electrified. Despite the fact that it was electrified in the 1960s.

 

[gordonthemoron]

what, no S&C or Cumbrian Coast line?

 

[northwichcat]

They also label Warrington BQ to Earlestown as a line they'd like electrified. Despite the fact that it was electrified in the 1960s.

Given the curve to the left it looks like they are referring to St Helens Junction to Earlestown to Warrington Bank Quay. Is that chord electrified or is it just the one towards Newton-le-Willows?

 

[Eagle]

That chord isn't currently electrified, but I believe it will be soon as part of the Chat Moss works.

 

[northwichcat]

That chord isn't currently electrified, but I believe it will be soon as part of the Chat Moss works.

That would make sense given DfT did say about Chat Moss electrification providing an electrified diversionary route for Pendolinos to take during engineering works.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm a bit surprised Sheffield-Doncaster isn't included.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm a bit surprised Sheffield-Doncaster isn't included.

I included that as 'remaining parts of South TPE' opposed to listing the 3 non-electrified sections separately.

 

[Altnabreac]

Looks a fairly reasonable list.

I'd think the main routes that are missing would be those with at least a 30 minute frequency which interlink with those suggested:
Gilberdyke - Thorne
Knottingley / Pontefract / Castleford
New Mills - Manchester
Southport - Wigan

I'd also imagine that you'd do Brighouse when the Caldervale line is done as its not a long stretch but gives you a lot of operational flexibility.

It also seems unlikely that you can justify wiring Preston - Burnley while not doing the relatively short stretch to Colne as otherwise the frequency wouldn't be high enough to make it worthwhile.

 

[DJH1971]

The Liverpool to Manchester CLC line must clearly be a candidate.

 

[Tobbes]

With this list, I'm surprised that they didn't add Deepcar - Glossop via Penistone....

 

[rebmcr]

With this list, I'm surprised that they didn't add Deepcar - Glossop via Penistone....

That's already electrified, it's the rails that are missing.

 

[northwichcat]

That's already electrified, it's the rails that are missing.

Well no the wires only still exist between Manchester and Hadfield.*

* Glossop was actually a spur off the Manchester-Hadfield-Penistone-Sheffield line, which is why the trains doing Manchester to Hadfield via Glossop have to reverse.

 

[8A Rail]

The Liverpool to Manchester CLC line must clearly be a candidate.

See number 11 in the above list - already included! To be honest, I find it more surprising it was not being carried as part of the current elecification works in the area - it would make sense and complete the jigsaw. Probably cheaper in the longer run too.

 

[northwichcat]

See number 11 in the above list - already included! To be honest, I find it more surprising it was not being carried as part of the current elecification works in the area - it would make sense and complete the jigsaw. Probably cheaper in the longer run too.

Speaking about completing the jigsaw, while it's not got a high frequency if the above went ahead then Wakefield-Mirfield would be the only TPE diversionary route that's not electrified.

 

[Waverley125]

would have thought that Stockport - Buxton has a pretty good case for wiring too.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Im sure Ive read somewhere that the Peterborough - Sleaford - Lincoln - Gainsborough - Doncaster section is on someones target list for electrification ?

 

[northwichcat]

would have thought that Stockport - Buxton has a pretty good case for wiring too.

Depends what happens on the Buxton line. There's been proposals to extend Hazel Grove services but that might not result in a half-hourly Buxton service, as Chinley and Sheffield have been mooted as other possible destinations. While some people might disagree I don't think generally Buxton services are that busy off-peak in school term time (when trains run in 2 car formation) even though they are very busy at peak times (when trains run in 4 car formation.)

Even if the Buxton line is wired the freight would remain diesel unless Buxton-Chinley-Northenden-Northwich is done as well, which may weaken the business case.

 

[dggar]

Even if the Buxton line is wired the freight would remain diesel unless Buxton-Chinley-Northenden-Northwich is done as well, which may weaken the business case.

I can't follow your reasoning here, how is wiring Hazel Grove (via Disley) to Buxton affected by freight going via Chinley.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Rail North is the interim name of the organisation working to devolve franchising for rail from Whitehall to the North of England and on page 72 of their proposals for what should be included in the next franchise they show a map showing what lines they believe should be electrified.

These are:
1. Newcastle to Carlisle
2. Sunderland to York via Middlesbrough
3. York to Scarborough
4. Selby to Hull
5. Remaining parts of South TPE
6. Manchester Victoria to Leeds via Halifax
7. Remaining parts of Blackpool to York
8. Leeds to York via Harrogate
9. Barrow to Lancaster
10. Windermere to Oxenholme (Although I think this may now have been approved anyway.)
11. Liverpool South Parkway to Deansgate
12. Warrington Bank Quay to North Wales
13. Crewe to North Wales
14. Sheffield to Wakefield via Barnsley
15. Wakefield to Leeds via Woodlesford

Newcastle to Carlisle would have some use, but mostly on the Hexham Newcastle section.

Sunderland to York via Middlesbrohj is indeed a curious one.

York to Scarborough if new stations are opened, then yes, but is this one not a bit marginal.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't follow your reasoning here, how is wiring Hazel Grove (via Disley) to Buxton affected by freight going via Chinley.

The freight goes between the Buxton quarries and the Tata Chemical works near Northwich. The freight trains need to avoid going all across the WCML at Stockport so they start on the Buxton line but switch to the Hope Valley Line before Hazel Grove and then follow a freight only route to Northenden (between Stockport and Altrincham.)

What I'm saying is the Buxton line needs more than just 1tph to/from Manchester before electrification can be considered (see Network Rail's electrification RUS where they make that exact point about the Buxton line) and due to the final destination of the freight, that doesn't do anything to improve the business case for electrification. (To switch the freight you need to wire a freight only branch taking a couple of freight trains in each direction a day - so that has a extremly weak business case for electrification to be done concurrently with the Buxton line.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sunderland to York via Middlesbrohj is indeed a curious one.

York to Scarborough if new stations are opened, then yes, but is this one not a bit marginal.

I imagine this is down to local councils in Scarborough and Middlesbrough realising they are going to lose direct Manchester services due to not being wired so trying hard to get wired for longer distance services to be reinstated. If York-Middlesbrough was done then Middlesbrough-Sunderland would be a diesel island.

 

[Eagle]

Newcastle to Sunderland is an unelectrified line as far as National Rail is concerned.

 

[dggar]

The freight goes between the Buxton quarries and the Tata Chemical works near Northwich. The freight trains need to avoid going all across the WCML at Stockport so they start on the Buxton line but switch to the Hope Valley Line before Hazel Grove and then follow a freight only route to Northenden (between Stockport and Altrincham.)



.

I'm totally confused now.

In steam days Buxton 8Fs working the ICI quarry trains ran via Dove Holes tunnel, Chapel Milton, Chinley and Disley tunnel to reach the route through Northenden. This line passes under the WCML at Adswood between Stockport and Cheadle Hulme. This is the old Midland route and passes over the old LNWR route from Stockport to Buxton just south of Hazel Grove station.

Is this not the route used by the quarry trains now?

Your description seems to imply they travel from Buxton to Hazel Grove on the LNWR route then reverse up the Hazel Grove cord onto the Midland line and then go on to Northenden via Adswood.

 

[tbtc]

Some interesting stuff here - thanks to jcollins for posting.

Disappointing to see "Network Rail's current plan being that Midland Main Line electrification reaches Sheffield by December 2020" - the latest I heard suggested that it may actually have been done within CP5 (rather than into CP6).

A few of the routes suggested for electrification seem odd priorities - half hourly routes like through Brighouse or Saltburn - Darlington or Wigan - Southport or Marple aren't important enough, but routes like Lancaster to Barrow (only an hourly service) are suggested. Could be for political reasons, to pacify those in a rural area (i.e. Barrow has nothing to fear from a "northern controlled" franchise)?

developing a dedicated diesel fleet adapted for the needs of community rail routes would be a major benefit

...sounds like a way of dumbing down some rural routes with some "light rail"? Especially when seen alongside "It is right to question whether all services running today need to continue in the future"...

Replacing old technology (e.g. signalling, Driver Only Operation) should lead to significant efficiency savings

It would lead to savings (and DOO works elsewhere) - but would the Unions be happy?

It is however likely that some ̳Pacer‘ diesel units will need to be retained in the short to medium term

This, and the large amount of electrification suggested in the medium term suggest that we are going to have some Pacers well into CP6, since there's little business case for building many new DMUs (due to low demand for them post-2024).

While the subsidy received is a function of both the revenue and the costs (the latter being in part a function of the way costs are allocated between different rail sectors), using a measure of total net subsidy per passenger-mile Figure 4.11 shows that Northern, which operates the greatest number of services across the North of England, is the most heavily subsidised in Great Britain (at 14.6p per passenger kilometre)

Yes, the "2011-12 subsidy per passenger kilometre" information is fairly bleak reading (in terms of "why can't we have some nice new trains".

Newcastle to Sunderland is an unelectrified line as far as National Rail is concerned.

Am not arguing with you, but the link that the OP posted shows it as black = already electrified (though clearly not at the moment as far as "proper" trains go).

 

[northwichcat]

I'm totally confused now.

In steam days Buxton 8Fs working the ICI quarry trains ran via Dove Holes tunnel, Chapel Milton, Chinley and Disley tunnel to reach the route through Northenden. This line passes under the WCML at Adswood between Stockport and Cheadle Hulme. This is the old Midland route and passes over the old LNWR route from Stockport to Buxton just south of Hazel Grove station.

Is this not the route used by the quarry trains now?

Your description seems to imply they travel from Buxton to Hazel Grove on the LNWR route then reverse up the Hazel Grove cord onto the Midland line and then go on to Northenden via Adswood.

Right from your original post it gave me the impression that you thought the freight trains didn't use the Buxton line at all so I was trying to make it clear that they do use the Buxton line but leave it before they reach the currently electrified section.

Anyway this is largely irrelevant because there has been nothing to strengthen the business case for electrification of the Buxton line from what Network Rail decided wasn't viable a few years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A few of the routes suggested for electrification seem odd priorities - half hourly routes like through Brighouse or Saltburn - Darlington or Wigan - Southport or Marple aren't important enough, but routes like Lancaster to Barrow (only an hourly service) are suggested. Could be for political reasons, to pacify those in a rural area (i.e. Barrow has nothing to fear from a "northern controlled" franchise)?

TfGM recently said it would be unacceptable for stations on one side of Rochdale to have less direct trains to stations on the other side of Rochdale so maybe they feel the same about Wigan, which means the Atherton line would need doing as well before all Southport trains could be electric.

 

[Greybeard33]

Right from your original post it gave me the impression that you thought the freight trains didn't use the Buxton line at all so I was trying to make it clear that they do use the Buxton line but leave it before they reach the currently electrified section.

Anyway this is largely irrelevant because there has been nothing to strengthen the business case for electrification of the Buxton line from what Network Rail decided wasn't viable a few years ago.

Just to be clear on this, the normal route for the aggregate trains from Peak Forest/Tunstead to Northwich is on the ex-MML via Chinley and the Disley tunnel to Cheadle Heath, then on to the ex-CLC line to Northenden and Skelton Junction. The alternative route via Great Rocks, Buxton and the ex-LNW line involves a double reversal at Buxton and another reversal at Stockport and so is only used for diversions. Although I read somewhere that NR is proposing to improve the track layout at Buxton and route more freight via the Buxton line so as to alleviate the bottleneck through Chinley for Hope Valley traffic.

I see that the text of the strategy document says that, in addition to the passenger route electrification shown on the map,

...current and near term projects should include, or at least make passive provision for freight terminals and sidings, and extensions from the current electrified network to key freight generating locations such as ports. This is particularly likely to be useful for intermodal services. It is also helpful to maximise the benefits of investment in other parts of the country such as the 'Electric Spine'.

Optimistically this might be taken to include routes like Peak Forest to Chinley, New Mills to Hyde, Guide Bridge to Heaton Norris and maybe even Hazel Grove and Stockport to Northwich and Hartford Junction!

The authors of the report evidently have not taken on board the opinion of some members of this forum, expressed in another thread, that electrification of Sandbach to Mickle Trafford via Middlewich would have a better business case than Crewe to Chester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think we are giving this report/plan too much credibility.
National electrification priorities are not determined by a regional group in the north without any funds or strategic authority.
The revised NR Electrification RUS will be significant when it comes, but even that can/will be overridden by DfT policy.
It will also be several years before the next tranche is authorised as part of the CP6 planning.
Plenty of time for a change in priorities before then (and maybe a change of government).
Current electrification schemes also have to deliver the benefits promised.

 

[northwichcat]

National electrification priorities are not determined by a regional group in the north without any funds or strategic authority.

LEPs do have budgets for transport to be spent between 2015 and 2019: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/local-transport-body-funding-allocations

Patrick McLoughlin said the following in his speech to the LEPs:

This year you start making the decisions on where funding for local major transport schemes should be targeted from 2015.

http://www.lepnetwork.org.uk/patric...ual-conference-2013.html#sthash.5NkWjQ1z.dpuf

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

LEPs do have budgets for transport to be spent between 2015 and 2019: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/local-transport-body-funding-allocations
Patrick McLoughlin said the following in his speech to the LEPs:
http://www.lepnetwork.org.uk/patric...ual-conference-2013.html#sthash.5NkWjQ1z.dpuf

All very local roads and buses.
Sure, it's the direction of travel, but no major rail scheme has yet been devolved to local control (outside TfL and Scotland).
The Treasury will resist all the way.
How large are the LEP budgets?

 

[northwichcat]

How large are the LEP budgets?

Try looking at the first link you included in your quote.

As a comparison WAG (who are also proposing electrification and other rail improvements) had a budget of £65m for transport to cover the current 2 year period while the Sheffield city region will have a budget of £62.7m over 5 years.