Rail industry preparing for national strikes

[The Planner]

That would be a good idea.

Going back to regions would be a very good idea (just like it was before NR tried to move everyone to MK).

It's farcical that planning at TOCs is done (theoretically) without looking at other operators service leaving NR to sort out the bigger picture.

NR planning at MK does not have the best reputation in the industry due to the large turnover of staff. There are some great planners there but too many planners taken off the street and given poor training. I would suspect that MK will be one of the places where there will be a lot of redundancies it is replaced by GBR.

Having gone through the carnage of 2010, splitting it back out regionally would set it back even further. To say TOCs aren't aware of the other operators is a bit wide of the mark as well.

 

[Trainbike46]

In recent years the RMT has been demanding "no compulsory redundancies" when any new franchise has been let (plus retention of guard roles etc).
They mostly achieved that, for the length of each particular franchise (eg 7-10 years).
Now that franchises are dead, and the TOCs are on short-term limited contracts, that is hard to achieve.
I can't think of any other industry which would or could give such guarantees.
Although the government effectively made this guarantee during the Covid emergency period (full employment with no furlough).
It's a fantasy when you have lost 20-30% of your custom and are attempting to re-size the business.

Don't the vast majority of TOCs have some sort of staff shortage? The two TOCs I use most (Scotrail and Avanti) definitely do. In that situation reducing staffing levels can easily be achieved by just hiring less new people, no need for redundancies, whether compulsory or voluntary.

 

[LowLevel]

It had been a strange few years really. Up until recently our Guard turnover has been minimal bar the odd person leaving for other TOCs for personal reasons, retiring or getting a driving job. Plenty of people with 10 years plus service in. Just lately though they've had plenty of new recruits walk in, train up and then walk out again.

Strangely not the air stewards walking in and then out again as things have recovered as you might expect though - they generally seem to be quite happy and settled rolling along at about 5 feet off the floor instead of 35,000 feet, possibly due to the airlines having successfully nuked the contractual terms in the meantime.

 

[LAX54]

That's a topsy-turvy way of doing it. It's usually cheaper to get rid of long term staff. The one-off higher cost of VS is usually easily outweighed by the saving in employment costs over time. The only exception is those within a couple of years of retirement age.

But when you are in a 'grade' to get rid of the, shall we say more junior members of staff for a smaller severance than an older established member, filling the vacancy, from another area of the Company is almost nil cost.

 

[kristiang85]

It had been a strange few years really. Up until recently our Guard turnover has been minimal bar the odd person leaving for other TOCs for personal reasons, retiring or getting a driving job. Plenty of people with 10 years plus service in. Just lately though they've had plenty of new recruits walk in, train up and then walk out again.

Strangely not the air stewards walking in and then out again as things have recovered as you might expect though - they generally seem to be quite happy and settled rolling along at about 5 feet off the floor instead of 35,000 feet, possibly due to the airlines having successfully nuked the contractual terms in the meantime.

It's the same in my work too (very office based). Lots of turnover, people only staying a short time, and we are having to extend job adverts as there are so few qualified people applying.

Whether this is due to less skilled workers due to Brexit, or people moving to other parts of the country, or a swathe of people taking early retirement or shorter hours after saving up in lockdowns - nobody seems to know at the moment.

 

[nedchester]

Having gone through the carnage of 2010, splitting it back out regionally would set it back even further. To say TOCs aren't aware of the other operators is a bit wide of the mark as well.

Which is why I say 'theoretically'.

However, centralisation certainly hasn't worked well and MK has a very poor reputation in the industry. There are some very good planners in the TOCs though........

 

[Gems]

Having an opinion doesn't make you knowledgeable, it makes you opinionated. Come on chaps, some of the wisdom displayed on these forums is making my sides ache.

Let's take a classic case in question. How many were accepted for the latest severance package?. Umm, non that I know of. It was effectively withdrawn. So why go on about mythical redundancies?. Its like the lesser spotted unicorn hunt that was Brexit.

They need to cut to the chase and get around the table. That's all.

 

[The Planner]

Which is why I say 'theoretically'.

However, centralisation certainly hasn't worked well and MK has a very poor reputation in the industry. There are some very good planners in the TOCs though........

Purely on the basis TOC planners rarely move and decent NR planners get swayed by the consultancy world. The best planners are now often third party as they are old school doing it as and when they please.

 

[nedchester]

Purely on the basis TOC planners rarely move and decent NR planners get swayed by the consultancy world. The best planners are now often third party as they are old school doing it as and when they please.

I'd agree with that.

I think NR doesn't pay the planners much for the skill set and means that many don't stay in post for long. I think there was an assumption that TPS would be all-singing and dancing removing the need for traditional planning skills.

If I worked at MK then I would be concerned about the axe coming in that direction.

 

[ungreat]

Having an opinion doesn't make you knowledgeable, it makes you opinionated. Come on chaps, some of the wisdom displayed on these forums is making my sides ache.

Let's take a classic case in question. How many were accepted for the latest severance package?. Umm, non that I know of. It was effectively withdrawn. So why go on about mythical redundancies?. Its like the lesser spotted unicorn hunt that was Brexit.

They need to cut to the chase and get around the table. That's all.

Like button

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Which is why I say 'theoretically'.

However, centralisation certainly hasn't worked well and MK has a very poor reputation in the industry. There are some very good planners in the TOCs though........

And there are some very good planners in MK.

Just this sounds like the typical blame network rail for everything.

 

[Gems]

I mean when 10 TOCs and NR won't talk about pay what does that tell you? Tells me the dead hand of the party led by a liar is behind it.

Why is it so horrible for me to pay my bills without having to rely on a ' sunak generated version of a wonga loan'. Maybe some of you have got a bit too comfortable sat on furlough and see nanny state as the default option

I'll repeat Those of us with some pride want to be paid enough to pay our own bills without handouts.

 

[ExRes]

I mean when 10 TOCs and NR won't talk about pay what does that tell you? Tells me the dead hand of the party led by a liar is behind it.

Why is it so horrible for me to pay my bills without having to rely on a ' sunak generated version of a wonga loan'. Maybe some of you have got a bit too comfortable sat on furlough and see nanny state as the default option

I'll repeat Those of us with some pride want to be paid enough to pay our own bills without handouts.

I would suggest that any TOC employee whose company is being bankrolled by the Government would be getting a handout, it's just called a pay rise rather than something else

 

[43066]

Yes they did break the rules, but they most certainly shouldn't & are very unlikely to do it again for rail workers. Look the bottom line is this, the government are looking to claw back some of the money they p***** away during the restrictions. The civil service for example has been asked to save £35 billion per annum, and they are serious. So the railways going out on strike is madness at this time because the government will see this as an opportunity to claw back more, and blame you lot for it. Its blindingly obvious, so much so that I cannot believe people would take such a risk. Let's put it this way if my union were to ballot for a strike I would be voting against, and even if a 'Yes' result were returned (which frankly in my sector would still be unlikely) I would almost certainly not go out on strike. Because right now the axe is swinging, and I for one wouldn't want to play chicken with it.

So there we have it. You acknowledge it’s not that they can’t do it, it’s that you think they *shouldn’t* do it for railway workers. Meanwhile I notice Sunak has just announced another £10bn spending bonanza.

As for “the axe is swinging”, pull the other one. Language like that strikes me as fear mongering and evidently the RMT and its members won’t be so easily cowed. Good for them for standing up for themselves.

I suspect the result of all this will be that money for the RMT members will be found, rather than the RailUK Forums dream or mass railway closures, redundancies and zero pay rises for all eternity.

I would suggest that any TOC employee whose company is being bankrolled by the Government would be getting a handout, it's just called a pay rise rather than something else

So everyone who works for the NHS, for the civil service, indeed anywhere in the public sector exists on handouts, do they?

I’d suggest that’s utter nonsense…

 

[Gems]

I would suggest that any TOC employee whose company is being bankrolled by the Government would be getting a handout, it's just called a pay rise rather than something else

Stop talking twaddle. I'm embarrassed for you. By your reckoning Doris Johnson is on a bigger handout. His fat wage is paid for by those on a lot less.

 

[Justin Smith]

I was planning to go on a Rover on June, much needed for my mental health after the last couple of mad years. The rail unions have now made that problematic, so thanks for that (not).
But it's quite simple, we live in a free market economy which, by the way, is by far the best way of maximising the efficiency of the economy, and, incidentally, raising the standards of living of everyone and paying huge amounts of tax for the NHS etc.
It is efficient because it directs capital and labour (mainly, but not exclusively, by means of higher or lower wages) towards their most efficient use.
How does that work ?
Like this :

Companies are experiencing difficulties recruiting train drivers (or any other workers) = increase the pay
Companies are experiencing no difficulties recruiting train drivers (or any other workers) = do not increase the pay
Result : labour ends up (by choice) where it is most needed, because, by definition, that's where the best pay is.

The RMT, or whatever they call themselves these days, are trying to bypass that by trying to grab more than they deserve by massively inconveniencing millions of people. Like me.

 

[ExRes]

Stop talking twaddle. I'm embarrassed for you. By your reckoning Doris Johnson is on a bigger handout. His fat wage is paid for by those on a lot less.

Me talking twaddle? who is Doris Johnson? I'm not the slightest bit embarrassed thanks, I worked for both the Post Office and the railway and both companies were accused regularly of using the public purse to give excessive pay to employees, if it was OK then it's OK now

 

[muz379]

It had been a strange few years really. Up until recently our Guard turnover has been minimal bar the odd person leaving for other TOCs for personal reasons, retiring or getting a driving job. Plenty of people with 10 years plus service in. Just lately though they've had plenty of new recruits walk in, train up and then walk out again.

Strangely not the air stewards walking in and then out again as things have recovered as you might expect though - they generally seem to be quite happy and settled rolling along at about 5 feet off the floor instead of 35,000 feet, possibly due to the airlines having successfully nuked the contractual terms in the meantime.

Similar experiences here as well at a relatively large depot . In the past people only generally retired or left for other jobs in the industry be it driving , control , training school or management . Now we have people leaving the indsutry totally before retirement age , and as you say worryingly some of them are passing out and not even working 12 months before jacking it in which is a huge cost to the country .

 

[43066]

But it's quite simple, we live in a free market economy which, by the way, is by far the best way of maximising the efficiency of the economy, and, incidentally, raising the standards of living of everyone and paying huge amounts of tax for the NHS etc.

We don’t actually. If we had a purely free market economy we wouldn’t have the NHS for one thing, or many other things which aren’t run on a strictly profit making basis….

 

[muz379]

I was planning to go on a Rover on June, much needed for my mental health after the last couple of mad years. The rail unions have now made that problematic, so thanks for that (not).
But it's quite simple, we live in a free market economy which, by the way, is by far the best way of maximising the efficiency of the economy, and, incidentally, raising the standards of living of everyone and paying huge amounts of tax for the NHS etc.
It is efficient because it directs capital and labour (mainly, but not exclusively, by means of higher or lower wages) towards their most efficient use.
How does that work ?
Like this :

Companies are experiencing difficulties recruiting train drivers (or any other workers) = increase the pay
Companies are experiencing no difficulties recruiting train drivers (or any other workers) = do not increase the pay

The RMT, or whatever they call themselves these days, are trying to bypass that by trying to grab more than they deserve by massively inconveniencing millions of people. Like me.

Sorry but no we do not have a completely unchecked free market economy , nor is it a good idea in my view to be advocating for one .

Anyhow , you might still be able to recruit enough train drivers if you halved the salary but is that going to result in a lower quality of candidate . Almost certainly

Also in some areas as discussed there is growing difficulty retaining people

 

[ExRes]

So everyone who works for the NHS, for the civil service, indeed anywhere in the public sector exists on handouts, do they?

I’d suggest that’s utter nonsense…

As someone who worked in the public sector for forty years I'd suggest that very claim has been made non stop, the fact that you think it's nonsense is down to your lack of historic knowledge

 

[43066]

As someone who worked in the public sector for forty years I'd suggest that very claim has been made non stop, the fact that you think it's nonsense is down to your lack of historic knowledge

So, by your own definition, you’ve only ever worked for handouts?! That’s a somewhat bizarre viewpoint..

 

[Justin Smith]

We don’t actually. If we had a purely free market economy we wouldn’t have the NHS for one thing, or many other things which aren’t run on a strictly profit making basis….

I don't agree with that. A free market, to me is defined as the business / productivity side of the equation. Not the social side, which is what the country chooses to do with the money generated and also includes education, police, the armed forces, etc etc.
Bearing in mind the railways are heavily subsidised, I do not think the vast majority of tax payers want their pound notes to end up in the pockets of an aggressive union's members..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2022 ==

Sorry but no we do not have a completely unchecked free market economy , nor is it a good idea in my view to be advocating for one .

Anyhow , you might still be able to recruit enough train drivers if you halved the salary but is that going to result in a lower quality of candidate . Almost certainly

Also in some areas as discussed there is growing difficulty retaining people

Pay them more, the free market works both ways. But do not pay workers more just because they have the power to hugely inconvenience millions of people.

 

[43066]

A free market, to me is defined as the business / productivity side of the equation. Not the social side, which is what the country chooses to do with the money generated and also includes education, police, the armed forces, etc etc.

So you’re now acknowledging we live in a mixed economy, not a free market economy, because that’s what you’ve just described?

 

[ExRes]

So, by your own definition, you’ve only ever worked for handouts?! That’s a somewhat bizarre viewpoint..

That was always the definition put forward by both the media and the great British public, who am I to disagree with such knowledgeable people? I always knew who was footing the paybill until rail privatisation came in and I always knew we were given an unfair advantage and unfair benefits over private company employees

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why is it so horrible for me to pay my bills without having to rely on a ' sunak generated version of a wonga loan'.

Which particular loan are you referring to? I must have missed that particular item when I was watching the statement in the House of Commons today.

 

[A0]

Stop talking twaddle. I'm embarrassed for you. By your reckoning Doris Johnson is on a bigger handout. His fat wage is paid for by those on a lot less.

Prime Minister's salary £ 161,400 (source: https://www.politics.co.uk/reference/boris-johnson-salary/) - on the basis of the comment above, a "fat wage".

RMT General Secretary salary £ 154,000 in 2018 (source: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...strikes-has-pay-boost-to-ps154k-a3959361.html)

Presumably the Gen Sec of the RMT is also on a fairly "fat wage" ? Or does that not count when one is a trade union Gen Sec and not a politician you don't agree with ?

 

[LAX54]

And there are some very good planners in MK.

Just this sounds like the typical blame network rail for everything.

When I was an SSM at a PSB, always welcomed a call from Train Planning to check that we could do what they thought we could do ! 7 times out of 10 they were spot on, but there was the odd time, that they had to go back and have a rethink, mainly timing where there would be flank protection, stopping a route being set as quick as they thought, or just general timing at some places.

 

[Starmill]

I mean when 10 TOCs and NR won't talk about pay what does that tell you? Tells me the dead hand of the party led by a liar is behind it.

Why is it so horrible for me to pay my bills without having to rely on a ' sunak generated version of a wonga loan'. Maybe some of you have got a bit too comfortable sat on furlough and see nanny state as the default option

I'll repeat Those of us with some pride want to be paid enough to pay our own bills without handouts.

This is a very bizarre criticism. Why can't it have both been right that the Job Retention Scheme was made available and also that pay rises this year for the public sector are on average 3-5% rather than the generally offered 1-2%?

I certainly think that both were / are the right policy and I'm pretty sure there's broad agreement about that in the general public.

Luckily the electricity subsidy is now going to be a one way payment. Which again seems to be the right policy.

 

[LAX54]

So there we have it. You acknowledge it’s not that they can’t do it, it’s that you think they *shouldn’t* do it for railway workers. Meanwhile I notice Sunak has just announced another £10bn spending bonanza.

As for “the axe is swinging”, pull the other one. Language like that strikes me as fear mongering and evidently the RMT and its members won’t be so easily cowed. Good for them for standing up for themselves.

I suspect the result of all this will be that money for the RMT members will be found, rather than the RailUK Forums dream or mass railway closures, redundancies and zero pay rises for all eternity.



So everyone who works for the NHS, for the civil service, indeed anywhere in the public sector exists on handouts, do they?

I’d suggest that’s utter nonsense…

It must be a rather big issue for such a big turn out, and a yes vote, when you bear in mind the last Signaller strike was almost 30 years ago !