Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
No job stays the same forever (mine has changed in the last few years a number of times). If it did then you'd still have a bloke walking in front of your train with a red flag!
Just look at how we manage our lives compared to 10 or 20 years ago. The World has changed massively often due to massive changes in technology, the railway in no exception to this. That is a FACT.
If people in ANY job cannot see that then they are very likely to fall into a trap through their own arrogance.
Bar possibly a few branch lines (e.g. the Parliamentary ones) no, they indeed won't, but the "nuclear option" in the case of the railway that is comparable with the miners is "right, DOO it is" and wait for traincrew to be unable to afford to strike any longer.. Without
Booking offices will be easier to close - yes, there'd be strikes, but hardly anybody would notice because hardly any tickets are sold that way now. They could even just close them with immediate effect and put the staff on gardening leave for the consultation period plus notice.
I dont see blanket DOO and wholesale closures of booking offices at the same time as being wise or even possible in some places , nor in many parts of the country are all the units currently in use ready for DOO , plenty of issues with stations . If anything I can see them trying to make cuts elsewhere like stations/cleaning/revenue and trying to make guard/conductors/train managers do more tasks and give up terms and conditions . How the RMT responds to that will be interesting to see given it will be one set of their members being favoured over another . Without turning this into another DOO thread I just do not see it being feasible in response to this dispute it isn't something that can be quickly implemented like say closing booking offices or laying off loads of cleaners doing litter picks on turnarounds , this government doesn't like long winded or nuanced it likes short sharp soundbites and solutions .
How does 3% sound ? The same as my pension increase which, although welcome, still leaves me, from this April, £80 worse off every month from energy and Council Tax bills alone, before anything else has been paid for. Rail staff should definitely get an increase and IMHO 5% say would be reasonable, given that people working are likely to have more outgoings than me. But to demand 9 or 10% is unrealistic.
Nah 3% doesn't sound like what the majority of folik I am speaking to want after 3 years .
So if 9% is the unrealistic then how come other workers in other industries have got that or thereabouts that ?
I have noticed this a lot , people on this forum like to say the demands of rail unions are unrealistic , like say 2p per scan for tickets or an increased rate for staff working overtime . But they are things that are already implemented or take place elsewhere .
Most office workers aren't employed as administrators. If you have a 'go home early if all your work is done' scheme it needs to be fair for all employees in all roles.
A considerable number of years ago, in my first week of work I learnt the employer didn't want something done quickly with 95% accuracy, they wanted it done with as close to 100% accuracy as possible, without spending an excessive amount of time triple checking everything.
I probably should have added that the work had to be completed to the required standard. Staff would soon realise that minimising rework was the key to going home early.
Some office jobs do, of course, involve being available for set opening hours. A different form of incentive would be required for those. Or maybe rotate staff between different roles?
But were getting way off-topic for this thread so I'll leave it there.
No job stays the same forever (mine has changed in the last few years a number of times). If it did then you'd still have a bloke walking in front of your train with a red flag!
Just look at how we manage our lives compared to 10 or 20 years ago. The World has changed massively often due to massive changes in technology, the railway in no exception to this. That is a FACT.
If people in ANY job cannot see that then they are very likely to fall into a trap through their own arrogance.
A great deal of change has taken place on the railway over the years. That’s also a FACT.
You don’t seem to be proposing anything that will actually change things for the better, other than your wish-list of closing ticket offices, bringing Sundays inside (which will cost more) and introducing DOO everywhere. None of that will improve the passenger experience or lower fares…
You seem to have a very low opinion of the industry you work in. Are you in a union yourself, out of interest?
A great deal of change has taken place on the railway over the years. That’s also a FACT.
You don’t seem to be proposing anything that will actually change things for the better, other than your wish-list of closing ticket offices, bringing Sundays inside (which will cost more) and introducing DOO everywhere. None of that will improve the passenger experience or lower fares…
You seem to have a very low opinion of the industry you work in. Are you in a union yourself, out of interest?
Is there any evidence where ticket offices have closed (e.g. London Underground) or there is DOO (Thameslink GN for many years and also Docklands LR, Manchester Metrolink) that the passenger experience is poorer ?
Is there any evidence where ticket offices have closed (e.g. London Underground) or there is DOO (Thameslink GN for many years and also Docklands LR, Manchester Metrolink) that the passenger experience is poorer ?
I think there is a big difference between say London underground which still has staff around at stations and routes on the mainline railway which might not have any staff presence at stations if the booking office were shut . Likewise there is a big difference between a DOO railway with plenty of staff at stations and Manchester Metrolink which again does not have a permenant static staff presence at stations . Manchester metrolink is blighted by crime you only have to read the local news to know that and people that travel on it tell me that antisocial behavoir is commonplace on trams and at stations to the extent that it is not on the railway .
I think there is a big difference between say London underground which still has staff around at stations and routes on the mainline railway which might not have any staff presence at stations if the booking office were shut . Likewise there is a big difference between a DOO railway with plenty of staff at stations and Manchester Metrolink which again does not have a permenant static staff presence at stations . Manchester metrolink is blighted by crime you only have to read the local news to know that and people that travel on it tell me that antisocial behavoir is commonplace on trams and at stations to the extent that it is not on the railway .
Metrolink indeed does seem to have an ASB issue, but I think the Merseyrail "rent-a-thug" approach would have more effect on the kinds of people causing it than booking offices remote from the platforms (as per most of Merseyrail) or guards who would hide in the cab for their own safety.
A great deal of change has taken place on the railway over the years. That’s also a FACT.
You don’t seem to be proposing anything that will actually change things for the better, other than your wish-list of closing ticket offices, bringing Sundays inside (which will cost more) and introducing DOO everywhere. None of that will improve the passenger experience or lower fares…
You seem to have a very low opinion of the industry you work in. Are you in a union yourself, out of interest?
So you accept that change has taken place over the years then but that doesn't mean it stops now.
Closing ticket offices is a bit of a no-brainer because less and less people are buying tickets from them preferring to use Online or TVMs. Sunday's inside (I know it costs more as I have pointed out) are just common sense. They actually IMPROVE the railway.
There are many changes that would make the industry much better, if change doesn't happen then the railway will stagnate. I want it to flourish. Seeing that change is needed is not having a low opinion of the industry, it's understanding how matters can improve.
I don't actually think lowering fares will happen any time soon whatever happens. But the passenger experience might (maybe some ticket office staff could be redeployed on trains to offer customer service.
I think there is a big difference between say London underground which still has staff around at stations and routes on the mainline railway which might not have any staff presence at stations if the booking office were shut . Likewise there is a big difference between a DOO railway with plenty of staff at stations and Manchester Metrolink which again does not have a permenant static staff presence at stations . Manchester metrolink is blighted by crime you only have to read the local news to know that and people that travel on it tell me that antisocial behavoir is commonplace on trams and at stations to the extent that it is not on the railway .
OK - but are you going to say that travelling on a local service from Hertford North to Moorgate - which is DOO - is fundamentally less safe or more unpleasant than taking a local service from Rochester or Gravesend to Charing Cross ?
Is there any evidence where ticket offices have closed (e.g. London Underground) or there is DOO (Thameslink GN for many years and also Docklands LR, Manchester Metrolink) that the passenger experience is poorer ?
Providing evidence for something qualitative like that is nigh on impossible.
Yes, I definitely provide a better passenger experience on my guarded trains than on DOO ones if the various letters of commendation for personal interventions over the years on my file are anything to go by - everything from identifying and dealing with vulnerable people to managing accidents out in the sticks to helping deal with a train on fire (thankfully just about ECS having kicked the passengers off it).
Dissatisfaction with the availability of staff on the train is far higher on DOO TOCs in the last full Passenger Focus survey than on TOCs with on board staff, which suggests that it is an important measure - the main guarded TOC coming anywhere near is WMR which is well known for having nearly invisible guards on various routes for various reasons - you can note what you like about that against the previous plans to introduce DCO there and whether that may change service standards in ways either positive or negative.
If staff availability wasn't something people were concerned about you'd expect it to be a lower figure, when it's actually one of the bigger negatives.
Metrolink indeed does seem to have an ASB issue, but I think the Merseyrail "rent-a-thug" approach would have more effect on the kinds of people causing it than booking offices remote from the platforms (as per most of Merseyrail) or guards who would hide in the cab for their own safety.
I'm not a fan of 'Carlisle Security' on Merseyrail but idea of having rovering security (both on trains and in road vehicles) personnel (I'd prefer those employed directly by the TOC) seems to work very well.
Living in the South Wirral with unmanned stations to Ellesmere Port and Chester nearby the amount of ASB has reduced considerably in recent times.
Metrolink indeed does seem to have an ASB issue, but I think the Merseyrail "rent-a-thug" approach would have more effect on the kinds of people causing it than booking offices remote from the platforms (as per most of Merseyrail) or guards who would hide in the cab for their own safety.
I suspect parts of Metrolink have ASB issues, a bit like parts of the Underground network do a bit like parts of the urban rail network in the West Mids does.
So you accept that change has taken place over the years then but that doesn't mean it stops now.
Closing ticket offices is a bit of a no-brainer because less and less people are buying tickets from them preferring to use Online or TVMs. Sunday's inside (I know it costs more as I have pointed out) are just common sense. They actually IMPROVE the railway.
There are many changes that would make the industry much better, if change doesn't happen then the railway will stagnate. I want it to flourish. Seeing that change is needed is not having a low opinion of the industry, it's understanding how matters can improve.
I don't actually think lowering fares will happen any time soon whatever happens. But the passenger experience might (maybe some ticket office staff could be redeployed on trains to offer customer service.
The ticket office at my local station is still well used. Yesterday I queued behind five seperate groups of people for ten minutes or so while they interogated the clerk before buying advance fares.I needed to buy an all line rover for use tomorrow. When I left there were five people queueing behind me. The two ticket machines in thestation were in constant use the whole time and the man on the barrier was also selling tickets from a hand held machine.
Metrolink indeed does seem to have an ASB issue, but I think the Merseyrail "rent-a-thug" approach would have more effect on the kinds of people causing it than booking offices remote from the platforms (as per most of Merseyrail) or guards who would hide in the cab for their own safety.
Metrolink do have roving revenue/security teams but they really seem to make very little difference ,maybe it is a numbers thing and they would be better if they employed more . As someone who only uses it infrequently it would be hard to say but I know majority of the time I have used it I have seen ASB at stations or on trams even in the city centre .
I am not saying that a guard or booking office clerk should or is going to be able to deal with all ASB on their own but I think most good guards/booking office clerks just by having a regular presence patrolling the train/station will deter a lot of ASB and even if they cannot deal with a particular issue on their own their presence to ring for police or security staff assistance and ability of a guard to enlist help from staff if stopping at a staffed station helps , even just them reporting something can lead to an intelligence led deployment of the police or security staff . For instance if I see a group of teenagers sat in a shelter at an unstaffed station usually smoking weed or causing a nuisance I will report it , if regular reports come in about locations the company usually push that out for the police to pay some random visits or the company deploy their own security contractors to make random visits . Would that be the same on a DOO railway ? It is small stuff like that which makes a huge difference to passenger experience .
Anti social behavoir isn't something that is fixed by just one thing but chipping away at staffing levels in my view would just see it increase especially given outside London a lot of the railway is open just like metrolink .
OK - but are you going to say that travelling on a local service from Hertford North to Moorgate - which is DOO - is fundamentally less safe or more unpleasant than taking a local service from Rochester or Gravesend to Charing Cross ?
I am afraid those are routes that I have no experience of regularly travelling on . What I will say is I feel much safer and have a more pleaseant expereince travelling on the railway network in greater manchester than I do travelling on metrolink where majority of the time I will see ASB .
The ticket office at my local station is still well used. Yesterday I queued behind five seperate groups of people for ten minutes or so while they interogated the clerk before buying advance fares.I needed to buy an all line rover for use tomorrow. When I left there were five people queueing behind me. The two ticket machines in thestation were in constant use the whole time and the man on the barrier was also selling tickets from a hand held machine.
I dont see blanket DOO and wholesale closures of booking offices at the same time as being wise or even possible in some places , nor in many parts of the country are all the units currently in use ready for DOO , plenty of issues with stations . If anything I can see them trying to make cuts elsewhere like stations/cleaning/revenue and trying to make guard/conductors/train managers do more tasks and give up terms and conditions . How the RMT responds to that will be interesting to see given it will be one set of their members being favoured over another . Without turning this into another DOO thread I just do not see it being feasible in response to this dispute it isn't something that can be quickly implemented like say closing booking offices or laying off loads of cleaners doing litter picks on turnarounds , this government doesn't like long winded or nuanced it likes short sharp soundbites and solutions .
Nah 3% doesn't sound like what the majority of folik I am speaking to want after 3 years .
So if 9% is the unrealistic then how come other workers in other industries have got that or thereabouts that ?
I have noticed this a lot , people on this forum like to say the demands of rail unions are unrealistic , like say 2p per scan for tickets or an increased rate for staff working overtime . But they are things that are already implemented or take place elsewhere .
But you do have the internet. My suggestion was if you didn't want it on your phone then it could be ordered online (you have a computer!) and then picked up from the TVM or even posted to you.
I'm not a fan of 'Carlisle Security' on Merseyrail but idea of having rovering security (both on trains and in road vehicles) personnel (I'd prefer those employed directly by the TOC) seems to work very well.
Indeed, I'd not call issues with one specific company issues with the concept. Ideally, as you say, directly employed. The point is that you need big hefty people* who can physically throw people causing trouble off the tram or perform citizen's arrests and call for Police assistance if a crime is committed, and you need to target them to where the problems are in groups rather than "one on every tram".
* I was going to say blokes, and it usually will be, but there are some hefty female security guards out there that you wouldn't argue with!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
But you do have the internet. My suggestion was if you didn't want it on your phone then it could be ordered online (you have a computer!) and then picked up from the TVM or even posted to you.
Or you could purchase it from a planner based TVM, as most of them now are. Yes, some of them are awful, but they don't have to be awful, the LNER ones are reasonably OK.
If you can use a Web forum you can use a TVM. You may not want to, but you can, and I as it happens don't want to subsidise the existence of ticket offices from my fares or taxation when they aren't really needed any more. It would be cheaper to offer totally free travel to those who physically couldn't use electronic means of obtaining a ticket, as such people are very few in number.
I think there is a big difference between say London underground which still has staff around at stations and routes on the mainline railway which might not have any staff presence at stations if the booking office were shut . Likewise there is a big difference between a DOO railway with plenty of staff at stations and Manchester Metrolink which again does not have a permenant static staff presence at stations . Manchester metrolink is blighted by crime you only have to read the local news to know that and people that travel on it tell me that antisocial behavoir is commonplace on trams and at stations to the extent that it is not on the railway .
In my experience there's as much ASB on a lot of Manchester bus routes. The 192 and (1)4x are pretty bad at times. The driver is more visible, sure, but typically they won't get involved in any problems because it would risk their own safety. The city as a whole is quite bad for it (far, far worse than London or Birmingham, and probably worse than Liverpool) and could really do with a shift to a Rudolph Giuliani style "zero tolerance" policing approach for a while to stamp it out. Piccadilly Gardens sums it up - what goes on there with the "spiceheads" should simply not be tolerated - chuck them in the cells daily if necessary until the message gets across.
Perhaps some people don't want to buy it online and would prefer to speak to a member of staff, particularly if they have the kind of questions which can only really be answered quickly and efficiently by a member of staff who has proper experience of the job and working in that particular location relevant to the journey they're making (ie. the person working in the booking office).
The thing with metrolink is it seems to be every route as well even the city centre which really should have some permenant staff presence . Least on the railway the ASB I have experienced tends to be isolated to bits at and between unstaffed stations .
The thing with metrolink is it seems to be every route as well even the city centre which really should have some permenant staff presence . Least on the railway the ASB I have experienced tends to be isolated to bits at and between unstaffed stations .
The city centre as a whole has a problem - Piccadilly Gardens is like the "wild west" and requires some very heavy-handed policing to sort it out. The "spiceheads" need chucking in the cells daily if necessary. Many of them aren't even homeless. If it was happening in Liverpool the ticket gates would largely keep it out, but I suspect if the trams had guards they'd hide in the cab for their own safety. What is needed is Police plus teams of hefty security guards.
Perhaps some people don't want to buy it online and would prefer to speak to a member of staff, particularly if they have the kind of questions which can only really be answered quickly and efficiently by a member of staff who has proper experience of the job (ie. the person working in the booking office).
Fine - so let them pay for the privilege - and for those who buy on line or self-service get a discount instead.
There is this incessant noise about how we have to keep certain "legacy" things in place, not just the rail network - but bank branches and cheques are other examples, yet their use is declining year on year and that cost has to be borne somehow.
Perhaps some people don't want to buy it online and would prefer to speak to a member of staff, particularly if they have the kind of questions which can only really be answered quickly and efficiently by a member of staff who has proper experience of the job and working in that particular location relevant to the journey they're making (ie. the person working in the booking office).
What you want will be determined by market forces.
You might want to book your flights at a travel agents (getting increasingly difficult), contact people by writing a letter (increasingly expensive), deal with your bank (many branches closing and going on line).
Technology drives change and will go with what the majority want.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Fine - so let them pay for the privilege - and for those who buy on line or self-service get a discount instead.
There is this incessant noise about how we have to keep certain "legacy" things in place, not just the rail network - but bank branches and cheques are other examples, yet their use is declining year on year and that cost has to be borne somehow.
Nederlandse Spoorwegen has charged for use of booking offices for some time. We could perhaps adopt that (maybe £1) and see if people switch away from them, though my observation is that almost everyone is using contactless or their phone these days - even the demand for TVMs is heavily reducing.
What you want will be determined by market forces.
You might want to book your flights at a travel agents (getting increasingly difficult), contact people by writing a letter (increasingly expensive), deal with your bank (many branches closing and going on line).
Technology drives change and will go with what the majority want.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Exactly. Opened a new Bank Account last week. Took me 5 mins using my phone. No need to go and talk to a human.
Are people better off for it in terms of their well-being? I would say not; doing everything 'online' may be more convenient for a lot of people and it does have its place, but gradually continuing to reduce human interaction and making transactions more robotic is unlikely to improve a lot of people's mental health.
The city centre as a whole has a problem - Piccadilly Gardens is like the "wild west" and requires some very heavy-handed policing to sort it out. The "spiceheads" need chucking in the cells daily if necessary. Many of them aren't even homeless. If it was happening in Liverpool the ticket gates would largely keep it out, but I suspect if the trams had guards they'd hide in the cab for their own safety. What is needed is Police plus teams of hefty security guards.
Slightly off topic but the amount of blatant drug dealing that goes on in picadilly gardens is frankly embarassing I agree the police really do need to take control of the situation but I personally do not hold GMP in high regard .
I think metrolink is too far gone now for a single staff prescence on every tram (like a guard) to be of any use I agree . But I question wether it would have got that way if there was a routine staff prescence on every tram and at many of the stations when lines were converted . Truthfully we will never know .
As I said the issue on metrolink seems to blight every line and route in the way that it simply does not on the railways around greater manchester , I am not for one minute saying there is no ASB on the railway but it is nowhere near as widespread as on metrolink in my experience . Yes in the most serious of cases when violence or credible threats of violence are being used most guards will retreat although if it gets to that point I think the majority of guards are calling the police anyway . Most guards will at least challenge ASB and in a lot of cases simple stuff like smoking on trains/fare evaders hiding in toilets denying others use or slightly rowdy groups can be dealt with there and then rather than the passengers hoping a random group of security staff get on . In some cases the risk of being seen by staff will be enough to deter.
Take fare evasion if someone knows that they are going to have to argue daily about not having a ticket they might be inclined to buy one , if they see a staff member and have to have that argument once in a blue moon they won't . If your sole system of detecting ASB and those evading revenue relies on sporadic/random staff prescence I do not think it should come as a suprise that both ASB and fare evasion are rife on your system as is the case with metrolink .
With regards to buying tickets, some of us still like buying paper tickets.
Yes I could do it on my phone, yes it might be easier, but then I've got to make sure it's downloaded correctly, that they've sent the correct ticket to start with, that I have enough charge on my phone etc.
A paper ticket is so much easier, it is what it is. Buy it, stick it in your pocket and your good to go for the rest of the day, no need to keep an eye on its battery level or whether the tech will say no.
I fear loss of booking offices etc. Will just see me use the car more.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
