Rail in the North conference

[CosherB]

From the Mid Cheshire web site:

London to Reading is average speed 108 mph,
London to Cambridge is average speed 99 mph, and
Liverpool to Manchester (between 2 of England’s largest cities) has a paltry average of 34 mph, the same speed The Rocket ran on The Liverpool & Manchester Railway in 1830, that’s 181 years ago!

 

[tbtc]

The issue is not that Liverpool will not get an HS2 line. The issue is whether Liverpool bound trains from London leave HS2 at the optimal place (optimal for Liverpool that is) - i.e. Weaver Junction (7 miles South of Warrington); or near Lichfield. The difference in journey time is immense.

It is not a matter of social experiment, it is a matter of politics. Liverpool and its environs still have political muscle enough to ensure a better deal than a Lichfield connection would offer.

There's no economic case for this.

I'm sure the local MPs will try to make some noise about it, but they must realise that Liverpool (and Sheffield/ Bradford etc) lags behind Manchester (and Leeds)

From the Mid Cheshire web site:

London to Reading is average speed 108 mph,
London to Cambridge is average speed 99 mph, and
Liverpool to Manchester (between 2 of England’s largest cities) has a paltry average of 34 mph, the same speed The Rocket ran on The Liverpool & Manchester Railway in 1830, that’s 181 years ago!

IIRC there are currently six trains an hour between the two cities, to increase to eight trains an hour (and longer trains on some services) when the Northern Hub is completed. That's better than Sheffield to Manchester (around forty miles apart), for example.

You could run faster trains, but you'd have to ignore places like Warrington (which would be politically unpopular)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From the Mid Cheshire web site:

London to Reading is average speed 108 mph,
London to Cambridge is average speed 99 mph, and
Liverpool to Manchester (between 2 of England’s largest cities) has a paltry average of 34 mph, the same speed The Rocket ran on The Liverpool & Manchester Railway in 1830, that’s 181 years ago!

Not quite:
PAD-RDG - 36 miles, 24 min = 90mph (non-stop, HST, 4tph)
KGX-CBG - 58 miles, 46 min = 75mph (non-stop, 365 EMU, 2tph)
MCO-LIV - 31 miles, 44 min = 42mph (3 stops, 156 DMU, 1tph) via NLW
Many slower journeys of course, on all routes.

After electrification a non-stop MCO/MCV-LIV might be 31-32 mins?
Even now it could be about 36 mins if they tried.
When TP are diverted this way sometimes they must get close to this, even stopping at NLW.

Reading and Cambridge (to Hitchin) use 125mph main lines.
The L&M route is stuck with 75/60 at the moment, 90 is the target but not possible over Chat Moss. Very slow exits at both ends (to Ordsall Lane and from Edge Hill).
The CLC line via Warrington Central is actually a faster route (85mph) and is currently the "main" line, but has been clobbered at both ends to make its journey time worse.

 

[northwichcat]

Not quite:
PAD-RDG - 36 miles, 24 min = 90mph (non-stop, HST, 4tph)
KGX-CBG - 58 miles, 46 min = 75mph (non-stop, 365 EMU, 2tph)
MCO-LIV - 31 miles, 44 min = 42mph (3 stops, 156 DMU, 1tph) via NLW
Many slower journeys of course, on all routes.

What you quoted said the average speed, not the fastest speed. I'm assuming that means the average speed of express/semi-fast services.

 

[Nym]

Manchester - Liverpool will get very close to the 30min mark via the Chat Moss at 2tph fast 2tph slow from Victoria and 1tph from Oxford Road IIRC, with 4tph remaining via the CLC 2tph semi and 2tph slow.

The Chat Moss times will be painfully close to 30mins, if they knocked linespeed up to 100 instead of 90 and put in a proper junction at Ordsall Lane I think you could nudge it to 30mins.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What you quoted said the average speed, not the fastest speed. I'm assuming that means the average speed of express/semi-fast services.

To do Paddington to Reading at 108mph would mean a journey time of 20 minutes.
HSTs take 24 minutes (working time actually 25) or 90mph.
By what calculation do they get 108?

If you include all the slower journeys the "average" speed is much less.
Oxford HSTs (1 stop) take 30min for instance, stoppers 55.

Same for Cambridge (non-stop 46 mins, semi-fast 61, stoppers 83).

I'm not disagreeing with the argument, but I like the facts to be right.
The fastest north-west local time I can find is Crewe-Warrington, 24 miles at 16 mins or 90mph, as good as Paddington-Reading.

 

[WatcherZero]

Roughly same as Preston-Wigan I guess. But then both WCML journeys.

 

[northwichcat]

The fastest north-west local time I can find is Crewe-Warrington, 24 miles at 16 mins or 90mph, as good as Paddington-Reading.

Apart from it being a lot less frequent and no local services actually operating between Warrington and Crewe i.e. ones calling at Winsford, Acton Bridge and Hartford, meaning to do Warrington to Hartford you have to go to Crewe and then back up again.

 

[Holly]

...Liverpool ... leave HS2 ... Weaver Junction ... or near Lichfield. ...journey time ...
a matter of politics. ...

... local MPs will try to make some noise about it, but they must realise that Liverpool (and Sheffield/ Bradford etc) lags behind Manchester (and Leeds) ...

Certainly, that is why HS2 would not come to Lime Street (or Edge Hill) but only to Weaver Junction.

HS2 has to come to the WCML somewhere in the NorthWest, Weaver Junction is not an especially bad choice for Scotland but an excellent choice (the best choice) for Liverpool. It is also less expensive than the most obvious alternatives (near Wigan, Newton-le-Willows or Crewe).

Weaver Junction to an HS2 junction somewhere a couple of miles North of Goostrey is a 13 mile straight line over flat undeveloped farmland all the way. From Goostrey to the South and Goostrey to Manchester Airport (via Mobberley) are easy routes too.

 

[Gareth]

There are plenty of places that won't get a HS2 link to/from London - Liverpool is getting HS2 services (albeit not wholly on "High Speed" track). Yet this is Liverpool being discriminated against.

I'm realistic enough to accept that South Yorkshire probably wouldn't get a HS2 service if it wasn't on the way to Leeds (I'm still unconvinced that there'll be a station anywhere near central Sheffield, I expect somewhere out near the M1 at Tinsley on the Rotherham border). But then Sheffield (like Liverpool) doesn't have the business/ financial/ First Class market that Leeds (and Manchester) has.

HS2 is designed to meet demand, not some social experiment to redress years of problems.

If you accept Sheffield playing a supportive/peripheral role in a Leeds-focused province, then good luck to you. I would've thought a lot of Sheffielders would expect better though.

No one in Liverpool (except our indifferent safe seat Labour MPs) feels the same. Investment in transport infrastructure is a social thing. It's not a financial investment; it's nearly always loss-making, no matter what part of the country we're talking about. You invest it in the big population centres because they are big population centres. That's how it is in most of the rest of the developed world. Here though, it's 95% London & the South East and 5% artificial regional capitals... Birmingham (Midlands), Manchester (North West), Leeds (Yorkshire) etc...

 

[northwichcat]

Weaver Junction to an HS2 junction somewhere a couple of miles North of Goostrey is a 13 mile straight line over flat undeveloped farmland all the way. From Goostrey to the South and Goostrey to Manchester Airport (via Mobberley) are easy routes too.

A bit of a problem with Goostrey to Weaver Junction being the preserved open pan salt works and the area in general suffering from building subsidence due to salt mining in the area.

 

[tbtc]

If you accept Sheffield playing a supportive/peripheral role in a Leeds-focused province, then good luck to you. I would've thought a lot of Sheffielders would expect better though.

No one in Liverpool (except our indifferent safe seat Labour MPs) feels the same. Investment in transport infrastructure is a social thing. It's not a financial investment; it's nearly always loss-making, no matter what part of the country we're talking about. You invest it in the big population centres because they are big population centres. That's how it is in most of the rest of the developed world. Here though, it's 95% London & the South East and 5% artificial regional capitals... Birmingham (Midlands), Manchester (North West), Leeds (Yorkshire) etc...

Just being realistic.

Sheffield/ Bradford/ Liverpool etc may have large-ish populations but they lack the financial power to attract something like HS2.

Then again, if HS2 were intended to deal with social issues then it'd be stopping at Burnley/ Middlesbrough etc.

 

[northwichcat]

Weaver Junction to an HS2 junction somewhere a couple of miles North of Goostrey is a 13 mile straight line over flat undeveloped farmland all the way.

Do you mean like the red line on the attached map and the new Lostock Business Park, the Lion Salt Works, the Lakes caused by subsidence and the chemical works don't come in to play?

Not to mention wildlife reserves on both your proposed routes, as well as a nature reserve on the Goostrey-Mobberley-Manchester Airport route.

 

[Nym]

So... Would anyone else agree that a good place to seperate from the HS2 main route for Liverpool would be onto the Chat Moss route near Culceath at a notional Manchester West Parkway station, where a 200m unit can split from another 200m unit, with one serving Liverpool via St Helens Junction and the other Preston and beyond. Since running 200m units on HS2 is pointless, and 400m units won't fit anywhere north of Preston...

So if Liverpool where to see 2tph on HS2, or even 3tph, each of these would join with another service at Manchester West Parkway or Manchester South Parkway (if coming from Manchester) before proceeding onwards to the HS2 core. Say Liverpool and Preston (1tph Glasgow, 1tph Blackpool) where to have 2tph each, this very conveniently fits with the whole, split at Manchester Parkway thing. Services via Runcorn can be retained by calling the splitting service that would still leave at Rugley (in my world) for Stafford, Crewe, Chester (to Holyhead) and either Liverpool via Runcorn or Warrington, Wigan and Preston, I'd prefer the latter as it gives greater coverage of NW stations with an hourly service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do you mean like the red line on the attached map and the new Lostock Business Park, the Lion Salt Works, the Lakes caused by subsidence and the chemical works don't come in to play?

Not to mention wildlife reserves on both your proposed routes, as well as a nature reserve on the Goostrey-Mobberley-Manchester Airport route.

And George Osborne's constituency...

 

[Holly]

Do you mean like the red line on the attached map and the new Lostock Business Park, the Lion Salt Works, the Lakes caused by subsidence and the chemical works don't come in to play? ...

Close, very slightly to the North (about 4% more distance than a perfectly straight line) will miss all those obstacles without tripping over similar ones.