Rail firms' phantom first-class carriages

[GodAtum]

An interesting article:

Rail companies have been accused of selling first-class tickets for services with no first-class coaches.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1281779/Rail-firms-phantom-class-carriages-Passengers-paying-coaches-dont-exist.html

Anyone had experience of this?

 

[Edvid]

That article (and various others I've seen on Google) are based on a shoddy piece by Which?.

* There are a few First Class services on the Loop. The fact that most Loop services don't have FC doesn't mean FC fares shouldn't be available.

* On the Parkway-Wimby journey, it is quicker to ride a Brighton train to Central London (and ride FC), then join the Sutton train. Alternatively you could use the train or tube between St Pancras and Waterloo or the tube between St Pancras and Vauxhall, though that would require more than one change. Depending on your preference, you can also travel with EMT between Parkway and St Pancras (there may also be other routes I haven't mentioned).

* Point-to-point tickets via London include the price of tube travel (as above) unless routed otherwise.

 

[EM2]

They also illustrated this on BBC News with a First Class Anytime single from London Terminals to Wimbledon.
I'm pretty sure there's FC available from Waterloo

 

[Greenback]

more poor journalism and poor 'investigation'. There are lots of places where the majority of services are standard class only. As long as there is a first class service, there should be a first class fare!

 

[me123]

Of course it's poor. It's the Daily Mail. If these tickets weren't available, they'd probably be asking why they weren't. We've already shown that First Class travel is available for all or part of the above routes.

 

[455driver]

They also illustrated this on BBC News with a First Class Anytime single from London Terminals to Wimbledon.
I'm pretty sure there's FC available from Waterloo

Not on the Suburban trains which form the bulk of the service, although there are a few up trains in a morning that have first class which call at Wimbledon then onto Waterloo (and down trains late on in the opposite direction).

What routes are valid for this journey?

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm sure there's a similar situation between Birmingham Snow Hill and Stourbridge: A first class fare is available for the occasional Chiltern Railways service that goes out to Kidderminster, which does of course have a first class section, but could potentially be purchased and used eroneously on the bulk of services, formed of 150s with 3+2 high density seating (all standard)!

 

[Pumbaa]

Chiltern Railways is standard class only!!

 

[thewolf]

Chiltern Railways is standard class only!!

It is indeed. I remember a woman who got on with a first class ticket asking where the first class section was. She wasn't too impressed when she found out there wasn't one, even though she'd been sold one at the ticket office

I know its possible to buy a first class ticket to stations along the Walsall line for the one Desiro service each morning:roll:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Chiltern happily sell 1st class Chiltern only tickets to Banbury/Leamington from Marylebone - you should send that article to Barry Doe - see what he makes of it...

 

[Mojo]

Chiltern happily sell 1st class Chiltern only tickets to Banbury/Leamington from Marylebone - you should send that article to Barry Doe - see what he makes of it...

The tickets would be sold to London Terminals. FGW operates a service from Banbury to Paddington which conveys First class, and WSMR/XC also operate Leamington to Banbury, and both have First class accommodation.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The tickets would be sold to London Terminals. FGW operates a service from Banbury to Paddington which conveys First class, and WSMR/XC also operate Leamington to Banbury, and both have First class accommodation.

WSMR of course with the £120.00 flat fare.

Would be incovenient if on Marylebone to have to go across WC London, then either onto a HST to Reading and XC to Banbury, then be able to jump onto a Chiltern service at Marylebone taking just under 1h10.

Aren't the FGW Banbury-Padd services the ones that call at most stations (if they do go to Padd), or start from p3 at Oxford. And then on the stock used, 1st class isn't brilliant.

 

[jopsuk]

At Christmas I travelled to Stirling from Cambridge first class. I knew the final leg was on a Scotrail service with no 1st class- though with a declassified section that I sat in. There was a gentleman also in the same section who got quite upset when told by the guard that he'd wasted his money- muttering about how things like that are why he doesn't normally use trains.

There is, as far as I'm aware, a single Edinburgh-Stirling service that you can actually board* per day that has 1st class- the East Coast Highland Chieftain to Inverness. Surely the self-service machines could be configured to warn customers of this?

*there's a second service that stops at both that has 1st class- the Inverness portion of the Highland Sleeper, but that's neither set down not pick up at Waverley.

 

[Failed Unit]

At Christmas I travelled to Stirling from Cambridge first class. I knew the final leg was on a Scotrail service with no 1st class- though with a declassified section that I sat in. There was a gentleman also in the same section who got quite upset when told by the guard that he'd wasted his money- muttering about how things like that are why he doesn't normally use trains.

There is, as far as I'm aware, a single Edinburgh-Stirling service that you can actually board* per day that has 1st class- the East Coast Highland Chieftain to Inverness. Surely the self-service machines could be configured to warn customers of this?

*there's a second service that stops at both that has 1st class- the Inverness portion of the Highland Sleeper, but that's neither set down not pick up at Waverley.

I see your point but I think the ticket is valid via Croy so you could have more options for first class. I hope the ticket office would warn you!

 

[sprinterguy]

Chiltern Railways is standard class only!!

Oops I'd always assumed the 168s had a first class compartment somewhere, my mistake. Nonetheless I'm sure I've seen a first class fare available from Birmingham Snow Hill to Stourbridge in the past, I'll probably be proved wrong...

 

[jopsuk]

I see your point but I think the ticket is valid via Croy so you could have more options for first class. I hope the ticket office would warn you!

Are you sure? Also, there's no way that someone that rarely uses the railways would consider Edinburgh-Stirling via Croy as a route they'd take. I'm sure a ticket office WOULD warn you- my point is that machines, where the gent had purchased his ticket, DO NOT have warnings about these situations.

 

[ffcphone]

I, for one, agree with the general thrust of the news article. It's all well and good those with a far more intricate understanding of the railway knowing that such and such a service will normally be a class whatever train which does or does not include first class accommodation etc.

But for the ordinary rail passenger, who approaches an automated machine or a ticket window and requests a first class ticket between A and B, it surely isn't unreasonable to expect first class accommodation to be available between A and B if a ticket has been sold to you.

In my part of the world, for example, Northern and fTPE run services. fTPE's class 185s have a dedicated first class section whilst none of Northern's trains do as even the 180s have been declassified. But how many ordinary rail passengers in my neck of the woods know that. Certainly, when I even begin to explain it to friends and family they all start yawning and calling me an anorak.

Tickets which are only valid on a specific service will, I presume, be sold correctly but for those less specific service tickets, it should be made clear prior to sale what first class accommodation is actually available. I know the rare occasion I book first class at the fastticket machines, there's no mention of only fTPE conveing first class accommodation on my daily commute and I wonder whether dealing with a human ticket clerk would be any different.

So perhaps we need to think more like typical rail passengers rather than those with intricate knowledge of diagrams, vehicles, seating layouts, etc.

 

[Failed Unit]

Are you sure? Also, there's no way that someone that rarely uses the railways would consider Edinburgh-Stirling via Croy as a route they'd take. I'm sure a ticket office WOULD warn you- my point is that machines, where the gent had purchased his ticket, DO NOT have warnings about these situations.

It is, but who would really do it considering that Croy - Stirling is likely to be standard only anyway and you have just added at least 30 minutes onto your journey time!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I, for one, agree with the general thrust of the news article. It's all well and good those with a far more intricate understanding of the railway knowing that such and such a service will normally be a class whatever train which does or does not include first class accommodation etc..

I tend to agree with you, I know which isn't impressed with the UK's rip of line HS1. But they asked SouthEastern why they would see you a 1st Class Ashford - London St Pancras return. South Easterns reply was so you could use 1st class on the classic line to return. As others have stated that a ATV would not warn you that HS1 has no 1st class. Why HS1 has no 1st class is a different dabate when trains on shorter routes do such as HEX and Glasgow - Edinburgh and people use it.

The other thing that has altered since HS1 appear is that before you may buy a 1st Return from say Faversham - Gillingham and your likely hood of getting a train with 1st accomodation has halved.

Saying that local users are not stupid and in the Stirling example I am sure that most people know that most services don't have first (The timetable highlights it). The first class must be offered in case someone wants to do a return to Edinburgh on the Highland Cheftain. (Unlikely but possible). Don't know how complex changing TVM software to highlight this would be. I guess if they can define peaks they could at least remove Stirling - Edinburgh as an option an hour before the HST appears and once it has gone.

 

[mallard]

It has to be possible to purchase a first class ticket for any journey where it is possible to use a service that conveys first class, no matter how rare these trains are or how indirect the route would be.

However, information about which services convey first class should be available at the time of purchase, the problem is that this information is in itself often complex, such as the case where the most direct TOC has no first class, but travelling via X and Y allows you to travel on another TOCs train that does. Or where most services on a particular line are operated by standard-only ClX units, but a few services during the peaks use ClY units that have first.

This would makes impractical for a ticket machine to give all the relevant information to the customer, so a warning would be watered down to something like "Some/Most services do not have first class. See staff for details." Which itself isn't particularly useful!

 

[Drsatan]

a warning would be watered down to something like "Some/Most services do not have first class. See staff for details." Which itself isn't particularly useful!

When searching for fares for a journey you've selected on the NR website, a warning pops up if you've specified first class fares and some, or all, of the train(s) you'll need to use do not have first class accommodation.

It's possible to buy a OP 1st class return from Romsey to Southampton Central because SWT's hourly service from Romsey to Southampton Central (half-hourly including the service routed via Eastleigh) uses 158s with a first class section. However, FGW operate a roughly hourly service using 150s, 153s and 158s that do not have first class accomodation.

 

[tbtc]

It has to be possible to purchase a first class ticket for any journey where it is possible to use a service that conveys first class, no matter how rare these trains are or how indirect the route would be

Very true.

You can travel from Sheffield to Meadowhall by Transpennine, so there's a First Class fare. Okay, ninety percent of trains between the two stations don't have First Class (Northern ones), but the fare still has to be there.

Similarly, Transpennine provide a couple of services to stations like Dore (mainly served by the Northern "stoppers"), so a Fare is available, even though the vast majority of trains can't provide it.

It looks bad for the railways, and makes for a cheap tabloid headline, but these fares need to exist

 

[Greenback]

Sometimes the railway just can't win. If there was a first class service with no fare available, the headlines would be about the lunacy of that situation!

I don;t think its' beyond the wit of even occasional travellers to work out from the timetable at the station whether there is a suitable first class service to their destination or not. If I cna do that aborad, where I am not familiar with the local railway system, then I'm sure others can in the UK!

 

[Failed Unit]

Sometimes the railway just can't win. If there was a first class service with no fare available, the headlines would be about the lunacy of that situation!

I don;t think its' beyond the wit of even occasional travellers to work out from the timetable at the station whether there is a suitable first class service to their destination or not. If I cna do that aborad, where I am not familiar with the local railway system, then I'm sure others can in the UK!

I can give you an example of one Lincoln - Nottingham has no 1st Class fare published for the 1 train per day that has the option. Don't know if you could upgrade on the train should you want to use 1st?

Likewise Grantham - Market Rasen does have a first class fare if someone wants to spend 12 minutes in First Class - probably don't see many You could buy your tea and biscuit at Newark and still be in profit. It would be wrong for the fare not to exist.

 

[Greenback]

Dont tell the Daily Mail! lol!