Rail fine avoidable?

[Rail fine]

What day of the week was it? If a Monday on or earlier that 16th there could be something to try if they refuse your copy of a bank statement.

This was Tuesday the 17th. As luck would have it

 

[34D]

This was Tuesday the 17th. As luck would have it

Write with your explanation and copy of bank statement.

Get the letter sent recorded post today or tomorrow.

 

[6Gman]

Apologies in advance if I stray off-topic, but where & how did you buy the ticket?

I'm assuming it was a Barnsley - Sheffield Single bought at Barnsley ticket office?

What do you expect the bank statement to show?

 

[talldave]

Apologies in advance if I stray off-topic, but where & how did you buy the ticket?

I'm assuming it was a Barnsley - Sheffield Single bought at Barnsley ticket office?

What do you expect the bank statement to show?

£3.80?

 

[Rail fine]

£3.80?

Exactly that. That I did indeed purchase a ticket and wasn't travelling without paying for the journey.

For anyone who is interested, I have been in contact with the Prosecution Department and they stated that if you are in the train station then you need to have a ticket for a journey and can only dispose of the ticket outside of the premises. If anyone thinks like me, that it is utterly ridiculous, I told the lady just that and even she seemed to sympathise. She just said that there is nothing she can do and that it is the bye law.
She advised to pay the fee and then submit my bank statement and reasoning behind my claim to the complaints department who may be able to sort it out and refund the fee. However that is very unlikely to happen and I suppose it's the penalty for me being lax and throwing away the ticket.
On a side note they said that they charge £70 admin fee as it is the highest the courts will allow....great!

 

[Clip]

Exactly that. That I did indeed purchase a ticket and wasn't travelling without paying for the journey.

!

This doesnt mean that at all. How do we know you didnt just give the ticket to your mate instead to try it on with the bin thing - which people have said they havent ever seen one there? and that is what the TOC will think also.

Im not saying you are not genuine but this is the sort of thing that goes on constantly across the country by people who dont want to pay and take the risk. You may find it utterly ridiculous but it is what it is and you didnt have a ticket when asked to provide one - that makes it pretty much cut and dry.

 

[EM2]

Unfortunately your have a responsibility to hold onto your ticket, which is the only evidence of the contract you have with the railway companies, until the completion of your journey. In the overwhelming majority of cases, this is when you leave railway premises, not when you leave the train.

If this is the case, then why, in days of yore, were tickets collected at the platform exit, and why do ticket gates retain tickets these days?
If I were in the habit of using gated stations, and one day happened to alight at a station without them, I would think it perfectly normal to dispose of my ticket in a bin if I saw one.

 

[CallySleeper]

(I cannot think of anywhere else on the platform or in the concourse at Sheffield where bins are provided.)

There are at least two on platform one.

 

[Rail fine]

This doesnt mean that at all. How do we know you didnt just give the ticket to your mate instead to try it on with the bin thing - which people have said they havent ever seen one there? and that is what the TOC will think also.

Im not saying you are not genuine but this is the sort of thing that goes on constantly across the country by people who dont want to pay and take the risk. You may find it utterly ridiculous but it is what it is and you didnt have a ticket when asked to provide one - that makes it pretty much cut and dry.

There are bins in the station believe me, as Cally has just posted, although they are not made that visible to be honest. Also, as I said, Starbucks has it's own when they put seating outside the stand.
Besides that, In the last post I didn't say that it wasn't an incorrect verdict, just that the ruling is very peculiar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If this is the case, then why, in days of yore, were tickets collected at the platform exit, and why do ticket gates retain tickets these days?
If I were in the habit of using gated stations, and one day happened to alight at a station without them, I would think it perfectly normal to dispose of my ticket in a bin if I saw one.

Although it goes by the laws it does seem a strange situation. The prosecution department stated that the journey is not complete until you have left the station. However it raises more questions than it can answer as Sheffield station contains shops and is used as the main entrance to the tram stop...so if you are going towards the tram/shops could you be in breach of the law?

 

[Clip]

There are bins in the station believe me, as Cally has just posted, although they are not made that visible to be honest. Also, as I said, Starbucks has it's own when they put seating outside the stand.
Besides that, In the last post I didn't say that it wasn't an incorrect verdict, just that the ruling is very peculiar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Although it goes by the laws it does seem a strange situation. The prosecution department stated that the journey is not complete until you have left the station. However it raises more questions than it can answer as Sheffield station contains shops and is used as the main entrance to the tram stop...so if you are going towards the tram/shops could you be in breach of the law?

ill have to take both your words for it then about the bins...

But revenue inspectors are not thick, they will position themselves so that they can see people off from an arriving train and those who fail the 'test' will more than likely get pulled to one side.

 

[6Gman]

Exactly that. That I did indeed purchase a ticket and wasn't travelling without paying for the journey.

For anyone who is interested, I have been in contact with the Prosecution Department and they stated that if you are in the train station then you need to have a ticket for a journey and can only dispose of the ticket outside of the premises. If anyone thinks like me, that it is utterly ridiculous, I told the lady just that and even she seemed to sympathise. She just said that there is nothing she can do and that it is the bye law.
She advised to pay the fee and then submit my bank statement and reasoning behind my claim to the complaints department who may be able to sort it out and refund the fee. However that is very unlikely to happen and I suppose it's the penalty for me being lax and throwing away the ticket.
On a side note they said that they charge £70 admin fee as it is the highest the courts will allow....great!

For what it's worth (and it's only a personal opinion) but I don't think it's ridiculous - utterly or otherwise. I would venture to suggest that chucking my ticket into a bin as I walked across the station was rather more ridiculous.

In the same way, I don't dispose of my supermarket receipts until after I have left the premises.

 

[Rail fine]

ill have to take both your words for it then about the bins...

But revenue inspectors are not thick, they will position themselves so that they can see people off from an arriving train and those who fail the 'test' will more than likely get pulled to one side.

I know it makes no difference to the outcome of this topic, but that's why I mentioned the thoroughfare to the tram station- as the inspectors were positioned in the foyer of the rail station cutting off the route to the trams and not near any platforms or in sight of them.
It seems that it is a helpless situation though as the prosecution department just said that you should have a ticket anywhere in the station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For what it's worth (and it's only a personal opinion) but I don't think it's ridiculous - utterly or otherwise. I would venture to suggest that chucking my ticket into a bin as I walked across the station was rather more ridiculous.

In the same way, I don't dispose of my supermarket receipts until after I have left the premises.

Fair enough, I agree that I acted stupidly. But I'd say that it's more like disposing of your receipt after you left the supermarket whilst still in a larger shopping centre and then being asked for your receipt for the supermarket goods?
Either way, bad mistake for me to make eh.

 

[bb21]

If this is the case, then why, in days of yore, were tickets collected at the platform exit, and why do ticket gates retain tickets these days?
If I were in the habit of using gated stations, and one day happened to alight at a station without them, I would think it perfectly normal to dispose of my ticket in a bin if I saw one.

The ticket remains the property of the rail companies, so if they were taken at the gatelines, you have a legitimate excuse to not have them at your possession.

Otherwise it remains the case that you keep the ticket with you until you leave railway premises. The Byelaws make it perfectly clear.

There are at least two on platform one.

I stand corrected. I had a brief look around the station so may not have spotted it on Platform 1.

It does not change the fact however that there was none on Platform 3/4 as alluded to by the OP when I looked.

 

[EM2]

The ticket remains the property of the rail companies, so if they were taken at the gatelines, you have a legitimate excuse to not have them at your possession.

Otherwise it remains the case that you keep the ticket with you until you leave railway premises. The Byelaws make it perfectly clear.

But this is not made clear, and I'm staff! Nowhere in the Byelaws, or EMT's PF literature, can I find a reference to keeping your ticket until you leave the station. The closest is Byelaw 17 (i) 'No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket'.
When the OP entered the railway, he did have a ticket. I would also argue that the bin is the property of the rail company, so they still have it.

Let's take a ludicrous, but feasible, example at St Pancras. You arrive from Sheffield early in the morning and the barriers are open. You pop down to The Grand to have breakfast, and you then have a meeting with their manager about the printing of their new menus. The meeting goes on for some time, and then you have lunch. After lunch, you head back to the train, but first, you see a cleaner and dispose of your inbound ticket.
And you still see that as an offence?

 

[Rail fine]

But this is not made clear, and I'm staff! Nowhere in the Byelaws, or EMT's PF literature, can I find a reference to keeping your ticket until you leave the station. The closest is Byelaw 17 (i) 'No person shall enter a
compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket.
When the OP entered the railway, he did have a ticket. I would also argue that the bin is the property of the rail company, so they still have it.

Let's take a ludicrous, but feasible, example at St Pancras. You arrive from Sheffield early in the morning and the barriers are open. You pop down to Grand to have breakfast, and you then have a meeting with their manager about the printing of their new menus. The meeting goes on for some time, and then you have lunch. After lunch, you head back to the train, but first, you see a cleaner and dispose of your inbound ticket.
And you still see that as an offence?

For arguments sake (I apologise) Sheffield station is a non-compulsory ticket area, which makes the case a little bit more confusing.

 

[EM2]

Not according to EMT it isn't.
Let me rephrase that - the Byelaws define a 'compulsory ticket area' as any area defined as such under a Penalty Fare Scheme. EMT's Penalty Fare literature defines Sheffield as being a station where this scheme is in force.

 

[furlong]

Let me rephrase that - the Byelaws define a 'compulsory ticket area' as any area defined as such under a Penalty Fare Scheme. EMT's Penalty Fare literature defines Sheffield as being a station where this scheme is in force.

That's not quite the same thing. Compulsory ticket areas are listed explicitly within each approved Penalty Fares Sceheme, and the last list I saw (from 2012) only contained 16 such areas of stations in the entiire country. No part of Sheffield station was one - it would be difficult for the necessary criteria to be met.

 

[EM2]

In which case, Byelaw 18 applies, which again makes no distinction as to which areas tickets should be kept for.

 

[furlong]

The only point I might make is that the presence of bins at the station between the doors of the train and the station exit at an open station may be viewed by some people as an invitation to dispose of their ticket, and to counter that excuse, good practice might suggest that such bins have notices like this one elsewhere on the rail network:

 

[LateThanNever]

The only point I might make is that the presence of bins at the station between the doors of the train and the station exit at an open station may be viewed by some people as an invitation to dispose of their ticket, and to counter that excuse, good practice might suggest that such bins have notices like this one elsewhere on the rail network:

View attachment 18650

True, but unlike what used to be (and maybe still is?) on buses...

 

[furlong]

True, but unlike what used to be (and maybe still is?) on buses...

Precisely. On a bus, you're often encouraged to dispose of your ticket in the bin as you leave the vehicle; but on a train, the industry assumes that passengers know that if they do likewise they might be considered to be a criminal! At a closed station that assumption's perhaps not unreasonable, but where you have pay trains and open stations?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Perhaps we can return to considering Byelaw 18:

In which case, Byelaw 18 applies, which again makes no distinction as to which areas tickets should be kept for.

No, but all the speculation about imaginary scenarios in which a passenger uses rubbish bins and no longer has a ticket to present at the barrier must be read in full context.
The context includes the title of the Byelaw: 18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

Ticketless travel. The inference will be that any passenger travelling who is unable to produce a ticket on demand (wherever or whenever that might be) would be travelling without a valid ticket. I still advise the OP to conceed the point due to the evidence now available, but the more hypothetical debate on here must bear in mind the words of the Byelaw, and that must include its title. If there was not ticketless travel, then Byelaw 18 is not triggered.

As the vast scale of fare evasion detected daily appears to be a combination of a failure to produce a ticket on demand and ticketless travel, it is easy to conflate one with the other, and hard to demonstrate that they are not causally connected.

 

[bb21]

In which case, Byelaw 18 applies, which again makes no distinction as to which areas tickets should be kept for.

I think DaveNewcastle got in before me. This case has nothing to do with CTAs, so Byelaw 17 has no relevance. Byelaw 18 applies to situations where a passenger intends to travel / has travelled, and 18(2) is quite clear that a ticket must be presented on demand.

It may not be ideal in the situations you hypothesised, but relevant legislation is quite definitive in that respect. This is not to say that ticket inspectors will just turn up anywhere in a station and demand to see tickets, for practicality reasons, eg. beyond gatelines.

So my advice remains - hold onto your ticket until you leave railway premises. If you don't want to listen then that is your choice.

 

[EM2]

It may not be ideal in the situations you hypothesised, but relevant legislation is quite definitive in that respect. This is not to say that ticket inspectors will just turn up anywhere in a station and demand to see tickets, for practicality reasons, eg. beyond gatelines.

So my advice remains - hold onto your ticket until you leave railway premises. If you don't want to listen then that is your choice.

But it is not definitive. If the title refers to Ticketless Travel, and you have already travelled, many people (I believe) would dispose of the ticket. If I get off the bus, I have travelled. When I get out of my car, I have travelled. When I get off my bicycle, I have travelled.
In those areas where buses still have ticket bins, and you use them, to be charged again for not being able to present a ticket somewhere in the bus station would be farcical, and the principle is no different.

 

[bb21]

But it is not definitive. If the title refers to Ticketless Travel, and you have already travelled, many people (I believe) would dispose of the ticket. If I get off the bus, I have travelled. When I get out of my car, I have travelled. When I get off my bicycle, I have travelled.
In those areas where buses still have ticket bins, and you use them, to be charged again for not being able to present a ticket somewhere in the bus station would be farcical, and the principle is no different.

I am not going to get into a debate about bus travel as the bus industry works an entirely different system to the railway industry so comparisons are meaningless.

If you have travelled, then you are subject to Byelaw 18. I don't see how it is such a difficult concept to grasp. If you are trying to argue that the journey finishes immediately on disembarkation from the train itself therefore there is no requirement to hold onto your ticket beyond that point, then you are unlikely to get very far, because what you are effectively saying is that ticket gates are unenforceable, since they only exist after that point.

While the exact end to a journey can be debatable in certain circumstances, what is not in doubt is that while one remains on station premises, the journey is not at an end. Even NRCoC are quite clear that you do not break your journey until you leave the station.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

But it is not definitive. If the title refers to Ticketless Travel, and you have already travelled, many people (I believe) would dispose of the ticket. . . . .

Please see post #24 in this thread.
It is case law that clarifies 'that a person who has been physically conveyed on a railway did not cease to travel on that railway merely by alighting on the platform'.

 

[talltim]

ill have to take both your words for it then about the bins...

But revenue inspectors are not thick, they will position themselves so that they can see people off from an arriving train and those who fail the 'test' will more than likely get pulled to one side.

If they were on the main concourse, they wouldn't be able to see any trains

 

[EM2]

Please see post #24 in this thread.
It is case law that clarifies 'that a person who has been physically conveyed on a railway did not cease to travel on that railway merely by alighting on the platform'.

So one judge defines it to be so, and it is for ever more? Another judge is not allowed to say differently?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not going to get into a debate about bus travel as the bus industry works an entirely different system to the railway industry so comparisons are meaningless.

If you have travelled, then you are subject to Byelaw 18. I don't see how it is such a difficult concept to grasp. If you are trying to argue that the journey finishes immediately on disembarkation from the train itself therefore there is no requirement to hold onto your ticket beyond that point, then you are unlikely to get very far, because what you are effectively saying is that ticket gates are unenforceable, since they only exist after that point.

While the exact end to a journey can be debatable in certain circumstances, what is not in doubt is that while one remains on station premises, the journey is not at an end. Even NRCoC are quite clear that you do not break your journey until you leave the station.

I've just asked my wife, who never uses paper tickets (she has a Freedom Pass), where she feels her journey ends. She replied that it's when she touches out her pass, but if she had a paper ticket and there was no barrier, she would consider her journey ended when she leaves the platform.
This is a perfectly normal, sensible, 65-year-old that doesn't travel on her own by train. If there was a case where she needed to do so, she could easily fall foul of this Byelaw.
And if you don't finish the journey until you leave the station, every member of staff in a shop at a station or every cleaner who travels by train never completes a journey.
Can't you see how ridiculous this seems?

 

[talltim]

It is case law that clarifies 'that a person who has been physically conveyed on a railway did not cease to travel on that railway merely by alighting on the platform'.

That doesn't say when they cease to travel, just when they don't.

 

[bb21]

Can't you see how ridiculous this seems?

Perhaps, but I didn't write the law.

You seem to have a problem understanding the fact that I am not here to argue what I think should be the case, just how I interpret current railway legislation.

It does not matter one jot what you, or a random passenger, or I, think if relevant legislation takes an opposite view and until the laws are changed, it shall remain so.