Rail fine avoidable?

[Rail fine]

Hi everyone,

Last week I bought a ticket from Barnsley to sheffield and as I was leaving the station I threw my ticket in the bin. Just before the doors I was then stopped and asked to produce a ticket. As I didn't have one my details were taken and now I've received a letter saying I am not being fined but must pay £70 for admin costs.

Have I got a leg to stand on if I ring them up and state that I have bank statement evidence for purchasing the ticket? I did tell the officer this and he said that I should be fine and incur no charges and that East Midland trains will most likely drop the case.
The charge given seems excessive seen as I did buy the ticket and have evidence for the purchase.

Any help appreciated

 

[carriageline]

The problem normally is, you having evidence you bought the ticket doesn't mean you was using it on the day (ie gave it to a friend to use)

No doubt more knowledgable members of this forum will be along shortly!


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[jon0844]

Couldn't you go back and get the ticket from the bin?

 

[Rail fine]

Unfortunately not, the officer was on me straight away and after explaining he said that he'd just have to take my details

 

[najaB]

Last week I bought a ticket from Barnsley to sheffield and as I was leaving the station I threw my ticket in the bin. Just before the doors I was then stopped and asked to produce a ticket.

When you say 'just before the doors', where exactly do you mean? And who stopped you?

 

[tony6499]

Couldn't you go back and get the ticket from the bin?

Exactly, the bin couldn't have been far away or had rubbish piled in it in the time given.

Did the OP suggest this to the Inspector ?

 

[Rail fine]

In regards to the bin suggestion, I did inform the inspector that I had purchased a ticket and thrown it in the bin just before I met him. To which he stated that he had to take my details...

 

[Rail fine]

Also, I believe it was just an East Midlands ticket inspector, with police not far away.

 

[talltim]

Bin where? There aren't any on the station, from what I remember, although there are probably some in the catering units

 

[6Gman]

This thread would be more interesting if the OP explained:

where he alighted from the train?
the precise location of the bin.
the precise location of the member of staff.

[I am reminded of a long and complex thread some time ago involving a lady disposing of a ticket while waiting on Edge Hill station whilst taking mobile phone calls from her boyfriend to rearrange their plans .......]

 

[DaveNewcastle]

When you travel by rail, you are obliged to complay with the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoC) and to the Railway Byelaws.

NRCoC 22 states :
22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable to hand a valid ticket over for inspection.

Byelaw 18 (2) states:
"2. A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person."

So, no, you don't have 'a leg to stand on' and there is little benefit from demonstrating that you had paid for something which could have been a ticket for travel that day (but there's no harm in asking!).

You are quite entitled to reject the offer of a £70 admin charge, or to challenge the amount of that charge, but the risk you run is that you may then find that the Company pursues you for a legal decision, and the Byelaw Offence appears to apply as a matter of fact.

Hope this helps.

 

[najaB]

...and the Byelaw Offence appears to apply as a matter of fact.

I'm curious as to where, by whom and in what manner the OP was asked to present his ticket. The answers could affect the outcome of any prosecution.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm curious as to where, by whom and in what manner the OP was asked to present his ticket. The answers could affect the outcome of any prosecution.

Hopefully Rail fine, the OP, will answer your questions shortly, but I have assumed that the request was on railway property and by an authorised Inspector in the course of Revenue Protection duties.

Those assumptions would sustain a Prosecution, if Rail fine wished to have the matter decided by a Court.

 

[34D]

You can certainly try a polite letter enclosing the bank statement. Was the ticket a return or a single?

Expect to have to pay though

 

[Rail fine]

The inspection was within the station foyer.

I'll try ringing up and explaining the situation and explaining about the bank statement. Thanks for the responses though, it seems like the stress of the court out weighs the fine so I will just pay that.

 

[Rail fine]

Hopefully Rail fine, the OP, will answer your questions shortly, but I have assumed that the request was on railway property and by an authorised Inspector in the course of Revenue Protection duties.

Those assumptions would sustain a Prosecution, if Rail fine wished to have the matter decided by a Court.

That's correct, just a standard ticket check by several inspectors in the foyer of the station. I'll try ringing and see what they say but will go ahead and pay the fine

 

[bb21]

Can you please explain exactly which bin you disposed your ticket of in?

 

[najaB]

That's correct, just a standard ticket check by several inspectors in the foyer of the station.

Genuine question: if the check was made in the foyer, after the OP had left the platform area, would a prosecution be successful? At what point to do you start and end a train journey -at the station doors or when you enter/leave the platform area? Looking at the station map, the foyer at Sheffield seems to serve as a right-of-way to get to the tram stop.

I'll try ringing and see what they say but will go ahead and pay the fine

A technicality, I know, but it's a fee rather than a fine.

 

[Rail fine]

Although, the letter does state that the inspection was carried out in a non compulsory ticket area (I take that as meaning the main entrance). It is under the ruling number 18.2 if that means anything to anyone.

Being non compulsory it seems strange that they have carried on with the prosecution? Or that may just be the norm for these situations.

 

[najaB]

Although, the letter does state that the inspection was carried out in a non compulsory ticket area (I take that as meaning the main entrance). It is under the ruling number 18.2 if that means anything to anyone.

Being non compulsory it seems strange that they have carried on with the prosecution? Or that may just be the norm for these situations.

A compulsory ticket area is a defined area that you cannot enter without a ticket - even if you aren't intending to travel. No part of Sheffield Station is (TTBOMK) a compulsory ticket area, so it makes sense that they said that.

The reference to 18.2 means that they were investigating a breach of the Railway Byelaws as opposed to the Regulation of Railways Act. From what you have posted, they aren't proceeding with a prosecution, but are charging you an admin fee instead.

 

[bb21]

Railway Byelaws 18.2:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
...
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
...

If you want help, you need to answer questions to help people determine exactly where you stand.

Can you answer the question I asked in Post 17 please?

 

[jon0844]

Where was the bin? Why couldn't you go back to it? Even if you were told details needed to be taken, you weren't being physically restrained and I know I'd have gone to the bin and fished it out there and then.

Sure, it could be just pot luck you might find the exact ticket you said you had that was put there by someone else - but it's very unlikely. What's more, the ticket has details on it that you could also use to confirm it was your ticket. And that's before they start to examine CCTV.

Something doesn't add up, given you seem to keep skipping the question about the bin - as if the ticket would have suddenly disappeared and couldn't be found. Indeed, I'm surprised the RPI didn't suggest you go and get it from the bin - as I am sure it would have saved having to do any paperwork and getting on to someone else.

I don't believe revenue staff usually want to waste time going after those who have a valid ticket (even if they rather naively threw it away before leaving railway property) over someone that didn't.

 

[Rail fine]

Where was the bin? Why couldn't you go back to it? Even if you were told details needed to be taken, you weren't being physically restrained and I know I'd have gone to the bin and fished it out there and then.

Sure, it could be just pot luck you might find the exact ticket you said you had that was put there by someone else - but it's very unlikely. What's more, the ticket has details on it that you could also use to confirm it was youasr ticket. And that's before they start to examine CCTV.

Something doesn't add up, given you seem to keep skipping the question about the bin - as if the ticket would have suddenly disappeared and couldn't be found. Indeed, I'm surprised the RPI didn't suggest you go and get it from the bin - as I am sure it would have saved having to do any paperwork and getting on to someone else.

I don't believe revenue staff usually want to waste time going after those who have a valid ticket (even if they rather naively threw it away before leaving railway property) over someone that didn't.

I don't want to come across rude here...but I have skipped the question about the bin as i have stated that I threw the ticket away and the inspector didn't allow me to go back to get it. That's not saying that i was held by force , just that he said that I didn't have a ticket at the inspection time and just needed to give a few details...All in an informal tone which I believed to contribute to why I was laid back about the situation at the time.

I didn't intentionally want to avoid speaking about why I didn't go back to retrieve the ticket, just that those details don't seem to contribute towards anything as that can't be changed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Railway Byelaws 18.2:



If you want help, you need to answer questions to help people determine exactly where you stand.

Can you answer the question I asked in Post 17 please?

I got off the train at platform 3 (as far as my memory remembers) and used the bin outside the Starbucks. If that's any help to anyone, thanks

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Although, the letter does state that the inspection was carried out in a non compulsory ticket area (I take that as meaning the main entrance). It is under the ruling number 18.2 if that means anything to anyone.

Yes, I quoted 18 (2) for you in post #11.
The reference to 'non-compulsory ticket area' is simply to distinguish that station from one which includes a statutory 'compulsory ticket area'.

Genuine question: if the check was made in the foyer, after the OP had left the platform area, would a prosecution be successful? At what point to do you start and end a train journey -at the station doors or when you enter/leave the platform area?

I'm not sure where this point might get anyone. That question was answered quite clearly 50 years ago; see Bremme v Dubery1963 in which Lord Parker C.J. clarified that a passenger "does not cease to travel on that railway merely by alighting on the platform" and that 'railway' includes "every station, siding, wharfe, or dock of or belonging to such railway and used for the purposes of public traffic." He also considered the language of the Acts in which the words "travels . . . . without having previously paid his fare" are found in the RoRA, and that 'railway' is defined very broadly in the RCCA.
Yes, a prosecution would be successful (on those grounds at least), if Rail fine chose to let a Prosecution commence.

 

[najaB]

I'm not sure where this point might get anyone. That question was answered quite clearly 50 years ago...

Thanks, as I said it was a genuine question both in case it was of any relevance in this case, but mainly for my knowledge.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't want to come across rude here...but I have skipped the question about the bin as i have stated that I threw the ticket away and the inspector didn't allow me to go back to get it. That's not saying that i was held by force , just that he said that I didn't have a ticket at the inspection time and just needed to give a few details...All in an informal tone which I believed to contribute to why I was laid back about the situation at the time.

I didn't intentionally want to avoid speaking about why I didn't go back to retrieve the ticket, just that those details don't seem to contribute towards anything as that can't be changed.

No, you didn't state that the inspector didn't allow you to go back and get it.

That seems rather odd.

 

[jon0844]

It would be particularly harsh if you could say 'my ticket is in there' and were told tough luck and that you'll be reported for prosecution.

Of course the offence is clear cut, but I can't understand why anyone would want to go after someone if they simply made a mistake in not realising that you could be asked for a ticket anywhere on or just outside railway property.

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[Rail fine]

It would be particularly harsh if you could say 'my ticket is in there' and were told tough luck and that you'll be reported for prosecution.

Of course the offence is clear cut, but I can't understand why anyone would want to go after someone if they simply made a mistake in not realising that you could be asked for a ticket anywhere on or just outside railway property.

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Unfortunately it looks as if that is true. Not sure if the current railway protests by older citizens is causing a more aggressive response and a zero tolerance take on situations...but I shall ring the Prosecution Division tomorrow and enquire as to the high 'fee' and if the only other option is Court (or if I could send them a bank statement to confirm I bought a ticket that day). I know it's an extremely slim chance of anything good coming from the conversation but I find it horrendous how I have been asked to pay a fee when I haven't had the chance to at least try and argue that I had bought the ticket.

 

[bb21]

Unfortunately your have a responsibility to hold onto your ticket, which is the only evidence of the contract you have with the railway companies, until the completion of your journey. In the overwhelming majority of cases, this is when you leave railway premises, not when you leave the train.

I had a look earlier today when I changed trains at Sheffield, there was no bin around Starbucks at the foot of the stairs leading to Platforms 3 and 4. This is not to say that you were lying, but it might provide some perspective if bins were regularly not provided and the RPI got used to that arrangement. (I cannot think of anywhere else on the platform or in the concourse at Sheffield where bins are provided.)

While providing them with your bank statement could persuade them that you were telling the truth - unlikely but worth a try - I think it might turn out to be a rather expensive mistake, for which you have my sympathy, but at least now you know.

 

[34D]

What day of the week was it? If a Monday on or earlier that 16th there could be something to try if they refuse your copy of a bank statement.