Rail fares advice 'inadequate', says Which?

[bnm]

From the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12563302

Every year Which? carry out a survey like this and every year ATOC say it is 'misleading'.

I know who I believe....

Which? carry out surveys, Passenger Focus carry out surveys, empirical evidence on forums such as this highlight major problems in the retailing of fares and still ATOC attempt to defend the indefensible. It makes my blood boil. ATOC, you are a bunch of shucking fysters.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe the season vs two returns is a bit obscure, but how long can ATOC keep playing with statistics to defend the ticketing mess?

Yes, more people probably buy simple tickets (like a ODTC in or around London) which means a huge number of sales, but they surely shouldn't count?

Regular travellers also have the time to find the best options over time, as against those taking the train for the first time, or for a long time, or somewhere they don't normally go (so you wouldn't know all the possible routes or even the available TOCs). That's where you need to ask, so maybe ATOC should direct everyone here?!

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk

 

[blacknight]

So who is going to be the first passenger to sue Which for misinformation then? only giving half a story yet again or write to Daily Mail
Split ticketing for instance & train don't call at station tickets join up ticket not valid or miss a connection more than happy to let you travel next service but that may be the following day.
Ticket office staff get it in the neck from both directions directives from managers above not to go down split ticket route unless directly asked for by passenger, because of restriction that have to then be explained.
Then this yearly article comes out to enpower the passenger to question ticket office staff making length of time for passengers in queue even longer but due to staff numbers being reduced it will not be possible to have separate windows for travel today walk up fares:-x

 

[Failed Unit]

So who is going to be the first passenger to sue Which for misinformation then? only giving half a story yet again or write to Daily Mail
Split ticketing for instance & train don't call at station tickets join up ticket not valid or miss a connection more than happy to let you travel next service but that may be the following day.

Have you read the article in the magazine? It explicitly states that the train must stop to allow the split to be valid. The questions were written by Barry Doe, hence why some of them are obscure.

 

[Railjet]

Well, what a surprise.

I love this response from ATOC:

The researchers haven't actually asked for the cheapest ticket in all the scenarios

What do they think, passengers deliberately want to pay more?

And this from the DoT:

That's why we have asked Atoc to put forward proposals to make ticket retailing easier for passengers

*yawn*.

And ATOC using statistics to suit themselves again. 16% of 1.3 billion journeys means a lot of dissatisfied customers.

 

[blacknight]

Have you read the article in the magazine?.

Question is how many members of the public will actually read the article in Which looked it up online to get full story from Which you have to sign up, many more will hear reports on BBC & in Daily Mail where restrictions & pitfalls of split ticketing are not explained. Read same article in Daily Mirror & it appears they discovered split ticketing last year yetcompletely fail to mention any restrictions.

 

[Failed Unit]

Question is how many members of the public will actually read the article in Which but many more will hear reports on BBC & in Daily Mail where restrictions & pitfalls of split ticketing are not explained.

That is a big concern I agree, the article in Which? is 4 pages long, which gets edits by the gutter press - with facts missed out. But Which? can't be held accountable for that.

I must admit I really don't like the cost savings TOC are making with ticketing. Lincoln Central is another station where the have combined advanced sales with today sales, you feel guilty when the queue is building up behind you for daring to do a more complex transaction at a time that suits you. I am not sure if the people serving feel the pressure as well as the queues build up and people risk missing trains. It can easily take 5 minutes per person if the transaction involves cashing in rail compensation vouchers as each one needs typing in manually. Why they don't have barcodes!

 

[Deerfold]

That is a big concern I agree, the article in Which? is 4 pages long, which gets edits by the gutter press - with facts missed out. But Which? can't be held accountable for that.

No? I wonder what Which's press release said?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Split ticketing for instance & train don't call at station tickets join up ticket not valid or miss a connection more than happy to let you travel next service but that may be the following day.

I don't see any mention of split ticketing in the BBC article.

 

[Failed Unit]

No? I wonder what Which's press release said?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't see any mention of split ticketing in the BBC article.

The BBC researchers get a copy of the whole article, it is upto them if they don't read it! It is very lazy to just cut and paste a press release not matter what it says. A good journalist should verify the facts before publishing it.

I don't think anyone can dispute the findings of the article, it is well agreed that ticketing is too complex and has got much worse after simplification.

My example you travel from London - Stirling, you can save a lot of money by using Virgin because they have different restrictions to the validity of the old Saver. Simple? Customer friendly? How do you explain that to someone that get the 1630 Ex Euston one week and then gets fined for using the same type of ticket on the 1500 Ex-Kings Cross!

 

[Zoe]

My example you travel from London - Stirling, you can save a lot of money by using Virgin because they have different restrictions to the validity of the old Saver. Simple? Customer friendly? How do you explain that to someone that get the 1630 Ex Euston one week and then gets fined for using the same type of ticket on the 1500 Ex-Kings Cross!

I believe Off Peak is valid on the 15:00 from King's Cross, Super Off Peak is not.

 

[gordonthemoron]

complicated ticketing is not just a problem in the UK. I was looking for tickets from Munich to Hamburg in May, direct it costs €99 or more, via Berlin which takes longer is €59

 

[blacknight]

I don't see any mention of split ticketing in the BBC article.

Split ticketing was mentioned in R5L report this morning boiled down to "saved money" but restrictions not explained or followed up later

 

[WillPS]

Personally, I think ticket office staff should know about some common local ticket splits and advise customers towards them. Obviously it would be unrealistic to get them to learn every split ticketing combination, but local ones and then the major boundaries (to get PTE tickets etc.).

It wouldn't be beyond the wit of man for ATOC to create an app which works out all the ticket splits (and the specific trains that split would/would not be valid on). In fact, I think these apps. have already been developed but rely on data which ATOC refuse to give out freely (which should IMO be public domain).

 

[Zoe]

Personally, I think ticket office staff should know about some common local ticket splits and advise customers towards them.

This would reduce revenue for the TOC. I can't see any TOC employee doing that.

 

[Greenback]

The truth is probably that ATOC are quite happy with the status quo. They beleve that ther eis a good balance at the moment between people who pay too much and the knowledgeable among us who know the system well enough to pay a lot less.

If there was a requirement to offer split tickets then revenue would undoubtedly fall overall.

 

[Failed Unit]

I believe Off Peak is valid on the 15:00 from King's Cross, Super Off Peak is not.

Correct, I have just rechecked.

The Super off peak is £117.50 and is valid on all north bound Virgin services to Scotland, but not on East Coast after 1500 (including if you break your journey and rejoin at newcastle - you need to makesure you use an XC if you want to resume after 1730!)
The off peak is £213 which is allowed on all east coast services.

My point is still the same you could use the 1630 on week with you super-off peak out of Euston and then get hit using the 1500 out of Kings Cross! £100 is a big premium just to use east coast but it is a classic example on why fare are no longer simple as this anomoly came up directly out of simplification when NXEC decided to use the business saver rate as off-peak and the former saver as super-off peak. I am not sure if Virgin ever had a business saver.

 

[Zoe]

My point is still the same you could use the 1630 on week with you super-off peak out of Euston and then get hit using the 1500 out of Kings Cross!

Is that valid? As far as I know Virgin don't offer Super Off Peak fares.

 

[Failed Unit]

Personally, I think ticket office staff should know about some common local ticket splits and advise customers towards them. Obviously it would be unrealistic to get them to learn every split ticketing combination, but local ones and then the major boundaries (to get PTE tickets etc.).

It wouldn't be beyond the wit of man for ATOC to create an app which works out all the ticket splits (and the specific trains that split would/would not be valid on). In fact, I think these apps. have already been developed but rely on data which ATOC refuse to give out freely (which should IMO be public domain).

Which? Actually advises people to buy the Avantix traveller CD-Rom at £14.56 inc P&P from tsoshop.co.uk "It helps you decide where to split as it shows tickets between all British train stations" - The article states "You don't have to get off the train, but it must call at the station you are splitting at. Rail staff don't have to advise about split ticketing but must sell them if asked"

Probably worth every penny if you travel a lot, we have all found lots of useful anomalies in the past, I now have a few to avoid the HS1 tax South Eastern charges for Londoners.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that valid? As far as I know Virgin don't offer Super Off Peak fares.

Yes, I have just checked it on the journey planner. Don't know why but when I got caught out John@home kindly pointed out the exact wording from the fares manual, the restriction does not apply from Euston. I in the end used the 1430 from Kings Cross - Newcastle and continued north on XC which is allowed, but I an not permitted to use the 1500 ex Kings Cross to join at Newcastle. Crazy!

I am amazed Virgin still allow it as it is a lovely loophole for Preston passengers to use peak service and claim they are breaking the journey... I think this is the exact reason East Coast clamped down, Newcastle passengers breaking the journey but never completing it. As the crew change at Newcastle they had no way of telling if the passenger had actually started the Journey at Edinburgh heading south or not. Even now with the barriers someone heading south would just go to the manual barrier an claim they went to WHS or whatever after changing train.

 

[Zoe]

I am amazed Virgin still allow it as it is a lovely loophole for Preston passengers to use peak service and claim they are breaking the journey...

Maybe Virgin could rename Off Peak to Super Off Peak in the new franchise and increase restrictions so that it can't be used say before 10:30 AM or between 2:30 PM and 7:30 PM. The Off Peak fare could then be increased with the old restrictions remaining.

 

[Failed Unit]

Maybe Virgin could rename Off Peak to Super Off Peak in the new franchise and increase restrictions so that it can't be used say before 10:30 AM or between 2:30 PM and 7:30 PM. The Off Peak fare could then be increased with the old restrictions remaining.

I have just looked at the valid routing on the super-off peak ticket, I am shocked it is allowed in the peak now from Euston. You can use it via Both Birmingham and Manchester. But I agree Virgin have some big difference between off-peak and peak, some middle ground would be good for them.

I have found one even more confusing to passengers.

London - Glasgow £114.70 off-peak not valid out of Kings Cross after 1500
London - Glasgow (via York) £202.70 off-peak no valid from Euston at anytime!

They are both off-peaks so someone buying the cheaper one will need these conditions explaining very well! Again I can't see anything preventing someone claiming to be travelling to Manchester claim they are no breaking the journey in the peak (or even actually breaking the journey)

Ticketing is a mess - I am sure if anyone from Virgin is reading this the restriction will be changed for the worse.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:roll: Ironic that Virgin Trains' new marketing campaign is called "Beat the System!"

 

[alloneword100]

The BBC researchers get a copy of the whole article, it is upto them if they don't read it! It is very lazy to just cut and paste a press release not matter what it says. A good journalist should verify the facts before publishing it. !

Are you sure? As a journalist I'm pretty sure I've occasionally had the advance releases from Which but not the full story to go with them.

As for cutting and pasting press releases, yes, well. All too often journalism = churnalism I'm afraid.

 

[scrapy]

Personally, I think ticket office staff should know about some common local ticket splits and advise customers towards them. Obviously it would be unrealistic to get them to learn every split ticketing combination, but local ones and then the major boundaries (to get PTE tickets etc.).

It wouldn't be beyond the wit of man for ATOC to create an app which works out all the ticket splits (and the specific trains that split would/would not be valid on). In fact, I think these apps. have already been developed but rely on data which ATOC refuse to give out freely (which should IMO be public domain).

I don't think the PTE's would be very happy if ticket office staff were commonly promoting PTE splits.

A passenger travelling Penkridge after 09.30 to Warwick could buy a day return for £17.70

Alternatively they could travel for £14.90, splitting at Wolverhampton and Dorridge.

The fares between Wolverhampton and Dorridge are subsidised by West Midlands PTE. If they believe a significant number of passengers are doing this then they may see it as being a waste of their council tax payers money and lower subsidies, resulting in higher fares. Why should someone living in the West Midlands subsidise someone from Staffordshire going for a day out in Warwickshire?

The more loopholes and splits are promoted by staff the more likely those in management will do something about removing the loopholes, which is more likely to see fares rise overall than lower them.

One example which I may as well post seeing as Northern are already aware and are looking to change it is the peak return fare from Holmes Chapel to Birchwood beng significantly cheaper than the fare to Manchester. When one or two people knew this it wasn't an issue but as it has previously been posted on internet forums and word has got around locally now almost all the passengers buy these. Now management are looking at changing this and i'm pretty sure they won't be lowering the Manchester fare!

 

[RJ]

Personally, I think ticket office staff should know about some common local ticket splits and advise customers towards them. Obviously it would be unrealistic to get them to learn every split ticketing combination, but local ones and then the major boundaries (to get PTE tickets etc.).

Err, no. It is strongly advised not to voluntarily offer splits. They confuse customers because you have to spend time explaining all about what to show and when, which ticket to put through which barriers, time restrictions, Condition 19c and so on. Most customers just want you to give them what they ask for and I think it's mutually beneficial if that is what is done. The only time I suggest split tickets is when I'm asked for;

a.) Outboundary Travelcards where customers haven't come from outside of London - they get an All Zones Travelcard + return extension combination.

b.) To confused customers who start from London, need to go beyond the zones and back in, then to somewhere else but haven't a clue what they need to buy. I.e someone asks for a day return to Gatwick, then are going to Colchester later on. I will give them an All Zones TC with the appropriate BZ6 extensions, it covers all the bases, usually the cheapest option and only warrants a very brief explanation. I have been known to do something like an SDR to Gatwick and an overdistance excess to Colchester for the return portion together, but only because the customer specifically asked for an extension on the return.

c.) A cheaper fare where the customer doesn't want a SOS/R. I will not offer anything which may require a lay passenger to argue their CoC rights to on board staff, in these situations I keep to a maximum of one split, where the customer has to change trains anyway. Up to 75% can be saved on single fares this was. I don't do this unless I'm specifically asked (customer may know that certain trains are cheaper than others and ask to use the cheaper one part way) and am not obliged to do it unless specifically requested.

d.) Where no through ticket is available, which occasionally happens.

 

[cuccir]

Err, no. It is strongly advised not to voluntarily offer splits. They confuse customers because you have to spend time explaining all about what to show and when, which ticket to put through which barriers, time restrictions, Condition 19c and so on. Most customers just want you to give them what they ask for and I think it's mutually beneficial if that is what is done.

This really is the correct and only reasonable response: bringing splits in could easily confuse irregular travellers, many of whom actually can afford the through ticket anyway.

Besides, the usefulness of many splits is often contingent on the nature of the journey ie what is a good split for overnight travel might not be a good split for day travel, what is good for a peak train* might not be good for an off-peak, what is good when you're booking advance tickets might not be good for walk-on fares and so on and so forth!

* Yes, there is no such thing as 'a peak train'!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

[
Yes, I have just checked it on the journey planner. Don't know why but when I got caught out John@home kindly pointed out the exact wording from the fares manual, the restriction does not apply from Euston. I in the end used the 1430 from Kings Cross - Newcastle and continued north on XC which is allowed, but I an not permitted to use the 1500 ex Kings Cross to join at Newcastle. Crazy!

I am amazed Virgin still allow it as it is a lovely loophole for Preston passengers to use peak service and claim they are breaking the journey... I think this is the exact reason East Coast clamped down, Newcastle passengers breaking the journey but never completing it. As the crew change at Newcastle they had no way of telling if the passenger had actually started the Journey at Edinburgh heading south or not. Even now with the barriers someone heading south would just go to the manual barrier an claim they went to WHS or whatever after changing train.[/QUOTE]

The super off-peak fare London-Stirling is set by EC, not Virgin, but is Any Permitted so you can go many ways.

The reason for different restrictions is surely obvious - WC has space on their route and EC doesn't. The revenue split between the TOCs will be the same whichever route you take.

 

[Oswyntail]

This really is the correct and only reasonable response: bringing splits in could easily confuse irregular travellers, many of whom actually can afford the through ticket anyway. ...

That response is just so gob-smackingly wrong I can only assume it is meant to be ironic. Patronisingly getting passengers to pay more for the privilege of not being confused? (Why not explain things clearly then?). Or saying they can probably afford it? Why don't you means test them first, then look at their commitments and priorities, so you can decide more accurately? Oh yes, that would hold up the queue.
The whole question of "splits" is just plain wrong anyway. This is a national rail network, franchised to operators, and fares should be uniform, understandable, and available to anyone - not just the geeks who have access to the fares manual.

 

[Railjet]

That response is just so gob-smackingly wrong I can only assume it is meant to be ironic. Patronisingly getting passengers to pay more for the privilege of not being confused? (Why not explain things clearly then?). Or saying they can probably afford it? Why don't you means test them first, then look at their commitments and priorities, so you can decide more accurately? Oh yes, that would hold up the queue.
The whole question of "splits" is just plain wrong anyway. This is a national rail network, franchised to operators, and fares should be uniform, understandable, and available to anyone - not just the geeks who have access to the fares manual.

That argument is so crystal clear, and so persuasive, one wonders why the government and/or user groups can't or won't do something about it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Post 26, I am sure passengers from Preston would love to know why someone travelling to Stirling twice as far can travel for 1/2 as much. If virgin have so much spare capacity they don't need the 11 car Pendo's I suspect it is an anomaly although virgins own London - Glasgow is very cheap. Leave at 1730 and break you journey at Manchester anyone?

 

[Mojo]

The fares between Wolverhampton and Dorridge are subsidised by West Midlands PTE. If they believe a significant number of passengers are doing this then they may see it as being a waste of their council tax payers money and lower subsidies, resulting in higher fares. Why should someone living in the West Midlands subsidise someone from Staffordshire going for a day out in Warwickshire?

Because people from other areas probably pay more for the PTEs than some of the scumbag local residents do. In a lot of cases council taxes outside of PTE areas are higher than those within them! PTEs get huge payments from central government every year, some of which goes to fund cheap fares and improved services within the areas which are probably used more by local residents as opposed to a small number of people splitting tickets, it seems only fair that others get to "take advantage" of the lower fares on the few occasions they may benefit from them.