Rail electrification scrapped / 'suspended'?

[zuriblue]

I sincerely hope that will be the case.

I had visions of doing it the "British" way. Dead stand, in a platform, all passengers detrained and at least 3 supervisors from different disciplines present!

Why? Thameslink don't detrain everyone at Farringdon although the train is at a stand. When Eurostar used to change from third rail to 25kV at Folkestone they did it on the move.

 

[coppercapped]

While another supplier would not be affected by anything like the IEP contract, alternative designs are effectively non-existent right now.

Bombardier has talked about building an Aventra bi-mode but until someone actually asks for one, I doubt they will do much by way of detailed engineering design - and their bi-modes for SNCF in France aren't much of a basis for a UK gauge train, as lots of the equipment is placed up on the roof, thanks to the higher loading gauge. Same goes for Alstom units supplied to SNCF.

I suppose it depends on the duty cycle of this hypothetical 'not Hitachi' bi-mode.

For speeds of up to about 100mph on diesel there seems to be no problem in fitting diesel power packs, fuel tanks and exhaust under existing trains, for example the diesel variant of the Class 319, and that's a 20m long coach. Pick up a standard power raft from MAN or MTU and with a 23 m coach giving extra space the job is (almost!) done.

For speeds of up to 125mph on diesel, a bit more oompf is needed. It would seem that a 750bhp power pack meeting the Euro Stage 3B emissions limits will fit under a normal height floor. However as an emu needs a coach for the pantograph, transformer and rectifier at least one coach out of the set won't have a diesel engine which would affect the acceleration at high speeds under diesel power but that might be acceptable.

Hitachi use a V-12 for the Class 80X which then does require a higher floor, so in this instance it may well be that no other manufacturer has a suitable design at the moment.

If one is prepared to compromise on performance on diesel power, then I would suggest that almost any train manufacturer could produce a train. Whether they see any profit in it is another matter!

 

[furnessvale]

Why? Thameslink don't detrain everyone at Farringdon although the train is at a stand. When Eurostar used to change from third rail to 25kV at Folkestone they did it on the move.

Perhaps I should have added a smiley, but in any case, neither of your examples involves starting up a raft of diesel engines on the move.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps I should have added a smiley, but in any case, neither of your examples involves starting up a raft of diesel engines on the move.

Starting up diesel engines is hardly a difficult process, is it?

 

[najaB]

Perhaps I should have added a smiley, but in any case, neither of your examples involves starting up a raft of diesel engines on the move.

I can't imagine why starting a diesel engine while in motion should be a huge technical challenge. I suppose spacetime dilation would make the tolerances *slightly* tighter, but not enough to be a showstopper.

 

[snowball]

As I mentioned in post #148, the front of the current issue of Rail magazine includes a description of a Hitachi 80x switching from electric to diesel at 100mph, including starting several diesel engines. All the driver had to do was to press a button marked DIESEL.

 

[dosxuk]

Bombardier has talked about building an Aventra bi-mode but until someone actually asks for one, I doubt they will do much by way of detailed engineering design - and their bi-modes for SNCF in France aren't much of a basis for a UK gauge train, as lots of the equipment is placed up on the roof, thanks to the higher loading gauge. Same goes for Alstom units supplied to SNCF.

I would be very surprised if Bombardier and Siemens don't have a new bi-mode design sufficiently advanced that they could offer it to potential franchises. After all, Bombardier only stopped (UK) diesel production after the government made it clear they were going to electrify everything and never buy another diesel train. Now bi-modes are apparently the answer to everything rather than electric trains, all the manufacturers are going to need to be able to offer them if they don't want to roll over and gift the work to Hitachi.

 

[najaB]

As I mentioned in post #148, the front of the current issue of Rail magazine includes a description of a Hitachi 80x switching from electric to diesel at 100mph, including starting several diesel engines. All the driver had to do was to press a button marked DIESEL.

Indeed. And thinking about it some more, even the spacetime dilation effects wouldn't be an issue since the engine would be at rest in relation to the rest of the train.

 

[furnessvale]

Starting up diesel engines is hardly a difficult process, is it?

Not to you and me but the UK seems to have a history of making things as difficult as possible, with or without the help of the EU.

Adding a slightly serious note, I wonder what ASLEF will make of a single driver being asked to start up engines, checking various lights and dials etc to see if all have started, while at the same time driving at 100-125mph?

 

[AndrewE]

Wrong analogy.

Recharging the battery = refilling the fuel tank.

Replacing the battery = replacing the fuel tank.

I've no objection to re-charging the battery or re-filling the tank, but having to spend several thousands of pounds every few years to replace the tank strikes me as daft.

Wheelsets! (Or tyres on a car.) You wouldn't refuse to adopt the technology simply because these parts need periodic replacement - or would you?

 

[ac6000cw]

Adding a slightly serious note, I wonder what ASLEF will make of a single driver being asked to start up engines, checking various lights and dials etc to see if all have started, while at the same time driving at 100-125mph?

That's what computerised condition monitoring is for - you assume everything is working and only issue warnings if something goes wrong. So at it's simplest something like a green 'train system OK' light that changes to amber for a warning (e.g. one engine not running) with more info on a display screen, or flashing red for a serious problem (e.g. an engine fire extinguisher system has gone off).

We're not talking here about a BR Mk1 DMU with a start button and 'engine running' light per engine on the left wall of the cab. And I have seen drivers of those units re-start engines on the move quite safely...

 

[JonasB]

Assuming you are not being ironic, search for 'Electric Spine' and HLOS. The DfT's 2012 HLOS included the following text:



And, no, it didn't happen.

I wasn't being ironic. I've tried to find some information about, but it's not that easy when you don't know what to search for. And since I'm not British I don't follow British media. But thank you for your answer! I'll read more about the electric spine.

 

[coppercapped]

Wheelsets! (Or tyres on a car.) You wouldn't refuse to adopt the technology simply because these parts need periodic replacement - or would you?

I didn't know that fuel tanks needed periodic replacement. After 20 years of being hit by bits of ballast - possibly. But a competent sheet metal worker could knock one up quite quickly.

It's not even in the same ball park as having to replace a traction battery every five years or so.

Again, the wheelset/tyres analogy is not appropriate. In both cases they are known to need periodic replacement and, unless one moves to maglev, there is no alternative for them.

 

[furnessvale]

That's what computerised condition monitoring is for - you assume everything is working and only issue warnings if something goes wrong. So at it's simplest something like a green 'train system OK' light that changes to amber for a warning (e.g. one engine not running) with more info on a display screen, or flashing red for a serious problem (e.g. an engine fire extinguisher system has gone off).

We're not talking here about a BR Mk1 DMU with a start button and 'engine running' light per engine on the left wall of the cab. And I have seen drivers of those units re-start engines on the move quite safely...

Thanks for that. I find your first para reassuring.

I too have seen drivers restarting engines, sometimes after every station stop, but that was a different era, and speed, in H & S terms.

 

[AndrewE]

I didn't know that fuel tanks needed periodic replacement. After 20 years of being hit by bits of ballast - possibly. But a competent sheet metal worker could knock one up quite quickly.

It's not even in the same ball park as having to replace a traction battery every five years or so.

Again, the wheelset/tyres analogy is not appropriate. In both cases they are known to need periodic replacement and, unless one moves to maglev, there is no alternative for them.

In fact I have had to have a fuel tank changed, half way through the 16-year life of a car.

However I agree that fuel tanks was a poor analogy, but I think that batteries and wheelsets are a good one. You know that both will need changing during the life of the vehicle, both are recyclable (fully, I hope, with money back on the re-usable content) and I just don't see why changing a battery set is a show-stopper... Why do you assume batteries are non-starters simply because they will need changing at some point?

 

[6Gman]

Wish I'd voted in the Green Party or Liberal Democrats they would have continued these projects and introduced electrification to the far South West.

Since there are no seats in the South west where the Greens are competitive that would have been a bit pointless.

 

[Taunton]

We had bi-mode trains for many generations. it was called "changing locomotives".

There used to be a whole range of through services which ran on both electric and diesel tracks, which have now been lost. A typical example was the Scotland to Birmingham services, which used to change to diesel at New Street and continue to the South-West. All now lost, the service from Scotland to Birmingham now continues to ... Euston, just duplicating the main WCML service. In fact, it seems to be used to sell through Advance tickets from London to Scotland on, enabling the direct service to be reduced.

The other alternative that developed was to run diesels for hundreds of miles under the wires, just to get on to the final destination. Hence HSTs running through from Kings Cross to Edinburgh. This also has been used to minimise the number of electric units built. The whole of the ECML wiring from Peterborough to Edinburgh, about 300 miles, has been used for the last 25 years by, as I understand it, no more than 29 Class 91 units, and the bulk of services throughout that section are diesel.

 

[Muzer]

Don't 92s still haul freight to and from the Channel Tunnel on the third rail system? These go nowhere near Southampton though.

You're right; sorry, I always forget the 92s for some reason!

 

[Muzer]

We had bi-mode trains for many generations. it was called "changing locomotives".

Which is slow, expensive, wasteful of resources and land, labour-intensive, error-prone and unreliable. Power changes on the move are basically the opposite of these.

 

[HowardGWR]

Indeed Taunton. There are some interesting articles by Roger Ford a rear or two back on the IEP finances, including the debunking of the time taken to change engines at Cardiff for Swansea. I expect he will be shortly revisiting that subject. The reason that most EU express trains are EMU is because that's all they need as all lines concerned are electrified.

We should not forget the opportunity lost to generate that electricity from renewables versus diesel generation on the bi-mode. We are signed up to Paris still.

 

[Railman]

Its money saving pure and simple. dressed up with spin, "benefits to passengers earlier etc, etc. must be some smiles in Network Rail as they are "off the hook" to deliver Electrification schemes on time and on budget. The Bi mode has Killed Electrification, because NR could not do it unless it had a blank cheque and no one asks "how is it going?"

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just outside Manchester Piccadilly station, to the east, is a building with a big sign which reads "Electrical Clearance Shop".
It's a Dixons/PC World outlet I think.
I suggest Network Rail nip in there quick and get some stuff before it all goes.
OHLE compliance problems solved.

 

[Taunton]

Which is slow, expensive, wasteful of resources and land, labour-intensive, error-prone and unreliable. Power changes on the move are basically the opposite of these.

I think this is the response of the current generation who have never seen this done like in the old days - efficiently. Can you believe the loco crew unhooking and hooking up themselves, rather than lolling about waiting for a shunter? And I never saw an error in a loco change in my life, although I'm sure plenty could be expected if they were done regularly today.

Go to Lucerne any time and see loco hauled services reverse out with a fresh loco in 3 minutes - I timed it.

I wonder what part of resource wastefulness is covered by dragging diesel engines and fuel tanks, or 25Kv transformers, one or the other at any time, uselessly around for every mile covered.

 

[Muzer]

I think this is the response of the current generation who have never seen this done like in the old days - efficiently. Can you believe the loco crew unhooking and hooking up themselves, rather than lolling about waiting for a shunter? And I never saw an error in a loco change in my life, although I'm sure plenty could be expected if they were done regularly today.

Go to Lucerne any time and see loco hauled services reverse out with a fresh loco in 3 minutes - I timed it.

I wonder what part of resource wastefulness is covered by dragging diesel engines and fuel tanks, or 25Kv transformers, one or the other at any time, uselessly around for every mile covered.

I've been to Zürich (for loco changes at a terminus station on non-push pull sets) and Amiens (for loco changes between diesel and electric lines). The process at the latter, despite them doing it at every train, took forever. I don't know if it's just the French being French, but it certainly took significantly more time than a usual station call! At Zürich they were indeed somewhat more efficient, but even if it had been a loco change on a through journey rather than a terminating service, this is still much slower than a changeover on the move, which requires no time at all, besides perhaps a few mph worth of speed lost by coasting for a short period.

The working practices at such stations also seemed to leave a lot to be desired. For example, the loco that's come off the inbound train accelerating before the train in front has even left the platform - seems dodgy as hell! There's a good reason British Rail abandoned such practices... It seems to me that the only way to do a loco change fast is to do it in a way which is accident-prone.

As for "error-prone", I've certainly heard of errors being made during coupling in this country - hitting something a little too hard, having someone standing where they shouldn't be and being injured, etc. - but suppose all these go away if we were to start doing loco changes more regularly than we currently do. Even then, the mechanical and electrical reliability of coupling and uncoupling locomotives has to be significantly less than that of a changeover on a bi-mode train.

Don't get me wrong, I love seeing quaint and unusual working practices on heritage and foreign railways, but I don't believe for one second that they would be the best for this country for anyone besides enthusiasts!

 

[MarkyT]

Why should adding or changing a loco on a passenger train be any different today to coupling two multiple units together? Auto-couplers with built in air and control lines could be used on a loco. That's not an argument for routine engine changes of course and I'm not at all worried about the extra weight of a diesel engine being carried around on electrified segments of a bi-mode journey. I am generally in favour of the bi-mode concept, but what worries me more is the entire fleet of GWR units carrying these diesel engines and that they that are to be used at full power for significant proportions of most journeys. That must have a significant ongoing maintenance cost in downtime, fitters' man-hours and consumable spares. Clearly Agility are to be being paid handsomely by the fare and taxpayer for this but at some time over the 27.5 years of the lease it might be in Agility's interest to help fund further electrification schemes, so that many of the IET units can finally lose their diesel generator sets and become all-electric trains, as planned originally.

 

[edwin_m]

Just outside Manchester Piccadilly station, to the east, is a building with a big sign which reads "Electrical Clearance Shop".
It's a Dixons/PC World outlet I think.
I suggest Network Rail nip in there quick and get some stuff before it all goes.
OHLE compliance problems solved.

When they have bought some clearance they can go back to "Square One", which, seriously, is the name of the main Network Rail office nearby.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When they have bought some clearance they can go back to "Square One", which, seriously, is the name of the main Network Rail office nearby.

You also pass the NR "Possession Centre" on the way.
They'll need some of those too.
Too serious to joke about, really.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A little clarification about TP and Valleys schemes in this Railway Gazette piece.
I think the gist of it is that all is not lost on these projects, but you just have to hope that the solutions being developed are affordable and don't take us down blind alleys (again).
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ecision-on-trans-pennine-electrification.html

Comments made by Secretary of State for Transport Chris Graying during a visit to Manchester the following day led to concerns being raised that trans-Pennine electrification might also have been cancelled. ‘We don’t need to electrify all of every route’, the Financial Times quoted Grayling as saying, explaining that there are sections of the route ‘built in Victorian times’ which are ‘very difficult’ to electrify, and where the use of bimode vehicles operating on diesel would be less complicated.

However, DfT has confirmed that this refers to the detailed scope of the project. Design work for electrification is still underway to the timescale announced when the project was ‘unpaused’ in September 2015, with firm plans to completed shortly ready for an investment decision to be taken next year.
Electrification is expected to be in place by 2022, although its extent may be altered from the original proposals in the light of developments in rolling stock technology; FirstGroup’s TransPennine Express franchise has Hitachi bimode multiple-units on order, as well as CAF locomotive-hauled coaches ordered for initial use with diesel locomotives.
‘Major upgrades to the Manchester – Leeds – York route are currently being designed and developed, to enable us to deliver better journeys for passengers from 2022’, a DfT spokesperson told Railway Gazette. ‘Passengers expect high quality rail services and we are committed to electrification where it delivers benefits, but will also take advantage of new technology to improve journeys.’

The cancellation of plans to electrify the Cardiff – Swansea main line does not affect the separate project to electrify the Cardiff Valleys network of local routes, the DfT has confirmed, with UK government funding still available for the project.

 

[jimm]

I think this is the response of the current generation who have never seen this done like in the old days - efficiently. Can you believe the loco crew unhooking and hooking up themselves, rather than lolling about waiting for a shunter? And I never saw an error in a loco change in my life, although I'm sure plenty could be expected if they were done regularly today.

Go to Lucerne any time and see loco hauled services reverse out with a fresh loco in 3 minutes - I timed it.

I wonder what part of resource wastefulness is covered by dragging diesel engines and fuel tanks, or 25Kv transformers, one or the other at any time, uselessly around for every mile covered.

There is a bit more to using locomotives than just how slick coupling and uncoupling procedures are.

If the bi-modes weren't being built, you would need a diesel loco that is able, in cases like the Cotswold Line, to handle stops and starts every 10 minutes or less, with a typical seven intermediate stops on an 60-mile Oxford-Worcester run, and pack the power to reach 90-100mph between several of those stops. I have my doubts that Vossloh/Stadler would say the Class 68 was designed with that type of duty cycle in mind. It could perhaps be adapted but there would be a price to pay to achieve that.

You would also need to have enough locos in the right places and at the right times to cover half-hourly services in the direction of the main peak flows, then hourly both ways most of the rest of the day (with some 30-minute intervals during the off-peak thrown in) and also allow for a service pattern where trains terminate at/start from five locations. Good luck working out how many locos that tots up to

There isn't a depot anywhere near the route equipped to maintain diesel locos and the only fuelling point, at Worcester, is owned by LM and flat out with its stock every night. So an awful lot of resources would need to be provided out on the ground to keep them running.

In the case of Swansea-Cardiff, you would need to allow for lots of trains starting and ending their day at Swansea (as that's where the depot is) but only an hourly service in between those times - so that would mean a number of shiny diesels parked in sidings most of the day doing nothing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There were apparently plans in the 2012 WCML bids for diesel haulage of a new design of Pendolino to provide the Chester/North Wales/Shrewsbury services.
Pendos would attach a loco at Crewe and run either to Holyhead (run round), or via Chester and Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton, where the loco would be detached for the run to Euston.
Loco attach/detach was said to be 3 minutes with auto-couplers, and the plan was for a class 68 design of loco.
I think both First and Virgin proposed similar plans (along with Alstom).

Never put to the test, of course, so Voyagers remain under the wires.
Diesel running would not have been dissimilar to Cotswold line operation (90mph max), though distances would be rather longer.
Alstom depots at Chester and Wolverhampton, also Arriva at Crewe who maintain ATW's 67s.