Rail Cards-Tickets

[VirginTrainFreak]

Hello i didnt know were to post this but so.Right basicly yesterday i got on the train at coventry and there was 2 women,They Had a ticket that was only valid with virgin trains and they were on london midland service to Northampton but got off at rugby basicly the guard/conductor said they had to purchase a new ticket. Are u allowed to use your railcards on board the train to purchase tickets or are they only valid on the station
if so heres wht the guard said
"Your Rail Card Is Valid at the station and your going to have to buy a new ticket"(He said this with attitude like)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In this situation the passengers would have to buy a new ticket, it could only be discounted for a railcard if there was no opportunity to buy a new ticket before the train departed (i.e. there was no ticket office or it was closed) AND the original ticket was discounted by the railcard.

 

[yorkie]

There are no Virgin only tickets to Northampton, but there are to Rugby.

No, Railcards cannot be used to purchase a new ticket on board unless there is a good reason (e.g. unstaffed station, ticket office closed, horrendous queues, etc).

Virgin only tickets cannot be excessed to Any Permitted tickets for use on LM. It's daft but those are the rules.

If someone gets on Virgin with a Route High Wycombe ticket they can be excessed, but get on with a LM only ticket and you have to pay potentially £hundreds for a new ticket. Likewise, get on a LM train with a Virgin only ticket and it's a new ticket required.

Of course you can get a ticket to the next stop and wait for the 'correct' operators train.

 

[Helvellyn]

Virgin only tickets cannot be excessed to Any Permitted tickets for use on LM. It's daft but those are the rules.

If someone gets on Virgin with a Route High Wycombe ticket they can be excessed, but get on with a LM only ticket and you have to pay potentially £hundreds for a new ticket. Likewise, get on a LM train with a Virgin only ticket and it's a new ticket required.

Of course you can get a ticket to the next stop and wait for the 'correct' operators train.

Well if someone has a "Virgin Only" ticket, the revenue from that ticket goes only to Virgin. Excessing it to an "Any Permitted" means London Midland would lose out still, as the only share of the Revenue they get is the excess, and even then it is likely that under ORCATS some of that would be distributed to other operators who are entitled to a share of Revenue for the relevant route.

If it states on the ticket it's only valid on one company, then it's quite straight forward that you don't then get on the train of a different company.

 

[yorkie]

That completely misses the point!

Who gets High Wycombe routed revenue? oh yeah, not Virgin. but it can be excessed.

Do EC get revenue from Peterborough - Huntingdon seasons + Huntingdon - London CDRs? no, but it's valid on EC.

My point is that the different approaches are not equal. it's unfair and confusing for passengers.

Revenue is irrelevant to passengers.

Revenue does not determine validity.

 

[A60K]

Presumably making a ticket Operator-Specific rather than Route-Specific will take it out of ORCATS calculations, even if the practical effect on the route the passenger takes will be little different?

Using a London to Birmingham Stations Route High Wycombe example, you could take:
Chiltern between London and Banbury/Leamington/Birmingham
WSMR between London and Banbury/Leamington
XC between Banbury/Leamington and Coventry/Birmingham
LM between Leamington/Coventry and Birmingham
Virgin between Coventry and Birmingham
ATW between Birmingham International and Birmingham

but I guess less than 1% of passengers would do anything other than stay on Chiltern all the way between London and Birmingham. Therefore it would seem sensible for Chiltern (solely from their revenue POV) to make it a Chiltern Only ticket, but this would be at the expense of the passenger losing flexibility on their route and the ability to excess if they wanted to return via Northampton.

 

[glynn80]

Presumably making a ticket Operator-Specific rather than Route-Specific will take it out of ORCATS calculations, even if the practical effect on the route the passenger takes will be little different?

Weirdly they are still allocated via ORCATS, the only circumstances when revenue is not allocated via ORCATS are as follows:

• Revenue from journeys where annual ticket sales revenue is less than £50. Processing time and the size of allocations files would increase vastly if this was allocated by ORCATS.

•  Revenue from flows where details of origin and/or destination stations are incomplete. It would be difficult to attribute this to particular flows. This revenue often comes from paper tickets and excess fares books. Wherever possible TOCs should ensure complete details are entered on paper tickets sold.

•  Revenue from sales of passes and Railcards such as BritRail passes and Young Persons Railcards.

•  Non-train journey revenue such as car parking.

• Agreements with third parties (private settlement), such as: payment for the non-rail portion of tickets, for example, admission to Alton Towers.

• Revenue from tickets sold by Transport for London and regional PTE outlets. For example, Travelcards and multi-modal tickets which allow train travel.

• Revenue from some London Travelcards sold by TOCs which is allocated by the Travelcard and Inter-TOC pools. This represents travel within London Travelcard zones and is allocated using a separate method. This method involves a survey requiring passengers to record details of journeys made. ATOC negotiates the methodology with Transport for London on behalf of TOCs.

 

[Helvellyn]

My point is that the different approaches are not equal. it's unfair and confusing for passengers.

Though the TOC specific restriction is placed under "routing" on the ticket, the validities are not the same. One allows travel via a certain route, or routes. The other restricts the use of the ticket to trains of the named operator.

I fail to see what is unfair about buying a ticket restricted for use solely on trains of the train company named on the ticket, and then being shocked when being told a new ticket is required when on a train of a completely different company. If a ticket says "Virgin only" then London Midland do not have to accept it. Just like if you travel on a SWT service with a "Southern only" ticket you will be asked to buy a new ticket that is valid on the train of the company the passenger is actually using.

 

[VirginTrainFreak]

There are no Virgin only tickets to Northampton, but there are to Rugby.

No, Railcards cannot be used to purchase a new ticket on board unless there is a good reason (e.g. unstaffed station, ticket office closed, horrendous queues, etc).

Virgin only tickets cannot be excessed to Any Permitted tickets for use on LM. It's daft but those are the rules.

If someone gets on Virgin with a Route High Wycombe ticket they can be excessed, but get on with a LM only ticket and you have to pay potentially £hundreds for a new ticket. Likewise, get on a LM train with a Virgin only ticket and it's a new ticket required.

Of course you can get a ticket to the next stop and wait for the 'correct' operators train.

no the female passenger got off at rugby

 

[royaloak]

I suppose its the same as trying to use a voucher for Marks & Spencers in Boots, it aint valid so pay up.

 

[yorkie]

I suppose its the same as trying to use a voucher for Marks & Spencers in Boots, it aint valid so pay up.

If there were instances of Boots shops appearing exactly where a Marks & Spencer shop was placed the last time I went shopping, and if occasionally a Boots store was in "Marks & Spencers" branding, with someone with a megaphone outside it saying "This is a Boots store", and if the gift vouchers looked identical with 'Shop Settlement Plan' branding and a common logo, then I would agree entirely with you!!!