Rail 674 Scotland RUS

[caliwag]

An interesting article by Steve Broadbent (always enjoy his infrastructure articles) on future improvements in Scotland. However, anyone notice this tasty snippet buried in Steve's precis of the issues hindering speeding up Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen.
Doubling or renewing the Montrose basin viaduct has major environmental concerns...cost, around 70m.
However, and I quote..."one option considered since publication of the draft RUS is to reopen the former forty four and a half mile route from Kinnaber Junct to Stanley Junct (just North of Perth) at a cost of about 700m"

Wow, now that would be something else, putting Couper Angus and Forfar back on the map to boot. I have been on at least two 'last trains to Forfar' in the late 60s/early 70s...indeed one aws hauled by a 50 on a layover from Crewe to Perth working: the other a brake van trip, with a 26. Forfar stayed open for a while for freight (potatoes, oil, coal).

So we could see A4s thrashing up the Strathmore, 3 hours Glasgow to Aberdeen!

 

[route:oxford]

An interesting article by Steve Broadbent (always enjoy his infrastructure articles) on future improvements in Scotland. However, anyone notice this tasty snippet buried in Steve's precis of the issues hindering speeding up Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen.
Doubling or renewing the Montrose basin viaduct has major environmental concerns...cost, around 70m.
However, and I quote..."one option considered since publication of the draft RUS is to reopen the former forty four and a half mile route from Kinnaber Junct to Stanley Junct (just North of Perth) at a cost of about 700m"

Wow, now that would be something else, putting Couper Angus and Forfar back on the map to boot. I have been on at least two 'last trains to Forfar' in the late 60s/early 70s...indeed one aws hauled by a 50 on a layover from Crewe to Perth working: the other a brake van trip, with a 26. Forfar stayed open for a while for freight (potatoes, oil, coal).

So we could see A4s thrashing up the Strathmore, 3 hours Glasgow to Aberdeen!

Now that would be pretty amazing - 45 miles of railway and opening up access to towns abandoned by the rail network for years. Looking at what is left of the line (most of it). It's all pretty straight too.

So would that make it a 100 mph double track railway?

That would potentially bring a journey from Glasgow to Aberdeen to under the 2 hour mark.

Might as well electrify it from (re)new. To connect with the knitting from Glasgow to Perth. Then it's just the final few miles to Aberdeen.

Bringing it down to the 1h50m mark with electrification?

If it was England, it would never happen - can't even get Oxford to MK or Oxford to Witney reopened despite the dire congestion in the area and the 1000s of cars it would take off the road every day.

But as it's in Scotland, it'll probably happen.

 

[rail-britain]

I personally doubt the extreme project will take place
First is the cost, and would be more likely be spent on other project (such as Waverley route completion to Carlisle)
Next, it would mean avoiding Dundee and although great for reducing journey times between Glasgow / Edinburgh and Aberdeen, it reduces the revenue
Network Rail have already advised they are more likely to proceed with the simple scheme of realigning the line just to the north of Montrose, the cheapest of them all
However, with the way Scotland is proceeding towards transport investment schemes the Forfar route certainly offers an alternative once electrification is completed to Perth and Dundee (and the time scale would be about right)
Therefore keep your eye on it and see what happens around 2020

 

[me123]

I personally doubt the extreme project will take place
First is the cost, and would be more likely be spent on other project (such as Waverley route completion to Carlisle)
Next, it would mean avoiding Dundee and although great for reducing journey times between Glasgow / Edinburgh and Aberdeen, it reduces the revenue
Network Rail have already advised they are more likely to proceed with the simple scheme of realigning the line just to the north of Montrose, the cheapest of them all
However, with the way Scotland is proceeding towards transport investment schemes the Forfar route certainly offers an alternative once electrification is completed to Perth and Dundee (and the time scale would be about right)
Therefore keep your eye on it and see what happens around 2020

The cost is expensive, but even though it bypasses Dundee it could very much be a worthwhile endeavour. If you had 1tph Glasgow-Dundee (although it would have to be a proper 1tph), you can maintain that market. 2tph Edinburgh-Aberdeen serve the Dundee-Aberdeen stretch of the journey, and you could have one of these trains calling at more of the intermediate stations giving Kirkcaldy a decent service to the North East for example. The 1tph fast on the new line between Glasgow and Aberdeen can then be introduced without affecting existing service levels. The only market that loses out here would be Glasgow-Carnoustie, Arbroath and Montrose, who lose a direct service to the largest city in Scotland.

It's possible, but there's no doubt it would be a rather expensive solution to a rather minor problem. Journey times from Glasgow-Aberdeen are currently around the 2h35 mark for the most part. That's not great, but it's not bad.

 

[rail-britain]

That still only leaves 1tph between Glasgow and Dundee
This is increasing to 2tph between Glasgow and Perth / Dundee
In the long term I agree with the project, thus giving 1tph via Forfar and 1tph via Dundee, between Glasgow and Aberdeen as proposed to cope with the increasing demand and capacity
Just me, or did someone at look at the Citylink coaches timetable?!?

 

[route:oxford]

Just me, or did someone at look at the Citylink coaches timetable?!?

I've just looked.

Not surprised it so quick. The roads have been improved considerably over the years - although there are significant danger points at Blackford, Auchterarder as well as between Perth & Dundee.

Still, I suppose it could be a "salami" opening. Open the line to Coupar Angus with the knitting up. Operate a shuttle service into the North facing bay platforms at Perth. Then steadily work along to Forfar, then north of Montrose as funding becomes available.

With £Ms being spent on improving rail in the Central belt - it's about time improvements were made in Perthshire and beyond.

 

[tbtc]

With £Ms being spent on improving rail in the Central belt - it's about time improvements were made in Perthshire and beyond.

There have been a lot of improvements outside the Edinburgh-Glasgow area though. Dundee - Edinburgh is now two/hour. Aberdeen - Edin burgh is faster through Fife nowadays. Perth - Edinburgh is now a regular hourly service (compared to just the Inverness trains). 158s on the Far North line. Improved local services around Inverness (Dingwall etc).The forthcoming Borders line.

 

[matchmaker]

The Strathmore route was one of the fastest lines in Scotland in its day. Nowadays I am sure there could be sections at 125mph.

 

[route:oxford]

There have been a lot of improvements outside the Edinburgh-Glasgow area though. Dundee - Edinburgh is now two/hour. Aberdeen - Edin burgh is faster through Fife nowadays. Perth - Edinburgh is now a regular hourly service (compared to just the Inverness trains). 158s on the Far North line. Improved local services around Inverness (Dingwall etc).The forthcoming Borders line.

I appreciate all these improvements, but no new/reopened lines North of Alloa though.

There are clear opportunties - although some (major) re-routing would obviously be required.

Dunblane-Callander
Gleneagles-Crieff
Aberdeen-Peterhead
Alloa-Dunfermline

Given the frustrating nature of Clackmanananananananshire Roads...

Stirling-Menstrie-Tillicoultry-Dollar-Kinross-Fife?

 

[jopsuk]

Alva-Tillicoultry, whilst hardly impossible engineering wise, would be entirely unlike the Alloa reopening and the A-B reopening, what with there having never been a line between the two.

 

[caliwag]

I appreciate all these improvements, but no new/reopened lines North of Alloa though.

There are clear opportunties - although some (major) re-routing would obviously be required.

Dunblane-Callander
Gleneagles-Crieff
Aberdeen-Peterhead
Alloa-Dunfermline

Given the frustrating nature of Clackmanananananananshire Roads...

Stirling-Menstrie-Tillicoultry-Dollar-Kinross-Fife?

Indeed it is time that Crieff was back on the railway map...I suppose without the extensive goods yard!

 

[tbtc]

I appreciate all these improvements, but no new/reopened lines North of Alloa though.

There are clear opportunties - although some (major) re-routing would obviously be required.

Dunblane-Callander
Gleneagles-Crieff
Aberdeen-Peterhead
Alloa-Dunfermline

Given the frustrating nature of Clackmanananananananshire Roads...

Stirling-Menstrie-Tillicoultry-Dollar-Kinross-Fife?

There have been very few re-openings anywhere in the UK recently though. Plenty services north of Alloa are now five coaches long (158 + 170), there have been some big improvements. I don't think Creiff/ Calender are going to justify reopening. Peterhead maybe, since there's a large untapped population beyond Aberdeen. But "northern" Scotland isn't doing too badly.

Alloa - Dunfermline would be a good one to do, due to the decent populations at either end, its a shame that this line would join the Dunfermline line in the "wrong" direction (e.g. would need to reverse to run Alloa - Edinburgh this way)

 

[route:oxford]

Alva-Tillicoultry, whilst hardly impossible engineering wise, would be entirely unlike the Alloa reopening and the A-B reopening, what with there having never been a line between the two.

It's a bit of a weird one really. There's only a mile or so between the end of the line at Alva to the course of the former line at Tillicoultry.

With a brand new embankment and relaid track/services, wouldn't take that much effort to operate a "Clackmannanshire circular" service.

Stiring-Menstrie-Alva-Tillicoultry-Clackmannan-Alloa-Stirling .

 

[PaulLothian]

It's a bit of a weird one really. There's only a mile or so between the end of the line at Alva to the course of the former line at Tillicoultry.

With a brand new embankment and relaid track/services, wouldn't take that much effort to operate a "Clackmannanshire circular" service.

Stiring-Menstrie-Alva-Tillicoultry-Clackmannan-Alloa-Stirling .

I think that would be remarkable - a Scottish council area with over 80% of its population living in small rail-served communities

 

[jopsuk]

The loop linking Tillycoultry with Clackmannan would be remarkable as well... the old Alloa-Tilly line left the Stirling-Dunfermline line at the old station site (before the new station) and ran through Sauchie, skirting the edge of Fishcross. For this idea, a new line would need to climb out the Devon valley to the east of Tilly and past east of Gartmorn- basically, the entire Alva-Clackmannan section would have to be completely new build. It would need about 6-8 miles of new build, over 3 miles of reopening, changing the direction of the junction at Cambus, a new junction at Clackmannan and at least four new railway stations, plus the section through Alloa would have to be entirely doubled (there's heavy freight traffic, the primary reason for the SAK line was coal trains, not passenger) with a second platform at Alloa.

I grew up in the Wee County- this level of investment would be bonkers for such a small population.

 

[route:oxford]

The loop linking Tillycoultry with Clackmannan would be remarkable as well... the old Alloa-Tilly line left the Stirling-Dunfermline line at the old station site (before the new station) and ran through Sauchie, skirting the edge of Fishcross. For this idea, a new line would need to climb out the Devon valley to the east of Tilly and past east of Gartmorn- basically, the entire Alva-Clackmannan section would have to be completely new build. It would need about 6-8 miles of new build, over 3 miles of reopening, changing the direction of the junction at Cambus, a new junction at Clackmannan and at least four new railway stations, plus the section through Alloa would have to be entirely doubled (there's heavy freight traffic, the primary reason for the SAK line was coal trains, not passenger) with a second platform at Alloa.

I grew up in the Wee County- this level of investment would be bonkers for such a small population.

My mistake. So many former rail lines in the area, I lost track which one connected up with which.

So, to rebuild my rebuild.

New spur and bridge at Cambus.
Tullibody Parkway Station
Menstrie Station
Alva Station
One mile all new embankment
The "Big One" Station
*Optional Spur to Dollar*
Sauchie station

All done

I'm sure Alloa was designed with a 2nd platform in mind.

Not sure about pathing though. Would an element of doubling be required, for a clockface

Stirling-Alloa-Sauchie-"The Big One"-Reversal-Alva-Menstrie-Tullibody Parkway-Stirling (on the hour)
Stirling-Tullibody Parkway-Menstrie-Alva-"The Big One"-Reversal-Sauchie-Alloa-Stirling (on the half hour)

The service would no longer be sitting at Alloa blocking the tracks and effectively between Cambus Junction and Alloa Junction - the track would be doubled now - just a mile apart.

Clackmannan will just have to wait until the Dunfermline line is opened to passenger services.

 

[tbtc]

I think there are bigger Scottish places without rail services (Grangemouth, St Andrews, Leven/Methil,Peterhead etc) before linking smaller places in Clackmannanshire.

 

[jopsuk]

Indeed. The only further rail project Clacks could sensibly use is to have a passenger service through to Dunfermline