RAIB Bulletins do TOC's Read Them? Is Yellow The New Orange

[ole man]

You cannot walk on the line with just a PTS, a COSS has to be appointed if there is 2 or more people, as a PTS you can walk on your own in a T3 possession to and from sites.
If you want to walk on your own whilst train are running you have to be a IWA

 

[Bald Rick]

You cannot walk on the line with just a PTS, a COSS has to be appointed if there is 2 or more people, as a PTS you can walk on your own in a T3 possession to and from sites.
If you want to walk on your own whilst train are running you have to be a IWA

With PTS you can walk on your own. You need IWA to work on your own. If there are two or more of you, you need a COSS whether walking or working.

The rule book is silent on what to do if two PTS only colleagues are walking on their own towards each other....

 

[ainsworth74]

The rule look is silent on what to do if two PTS only colleagues are walking on their own towards each other....

Close their eyes and pretend the other isn't there?

 

[ole man]

All separate work groups must remain 20metres apart, so the PTS will have to turn round!!

 

[185]

FirstGroup have been issuing yellow hi-viz vests to allsorts of people. Utter lunacy.

Is my station a bus depot? No.

 

[BestWestern]

It is against the law to proceed beyond a red cross indicated on a dot matrix display and/or flashing red lights above any given lane. There should be an indication of a lane closure before this point, after which you should merge in turn.

I may have misinterpreted your post, I thought you were referring to the initial lane closure advance warning signs, rather than the signage at the point where the lane becomes closed. Obviously those who chose to continue into any closed section of road are idiots!
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FirstGroup have been issuing yellow hi-viz vests to allsorts of people. Utter lunacy.

Is my station a bus depot? No.

It makes a lot of sense for customer service staff on platforms to be highly visible (hence giving them a 'hi viz'!) so that people can locate them when needed. It would be very difficult indeed to identify somebody wearing just a dark uniform on a packed rush hour platform full of commuters wearing similar clothing. When the info systems go down at a major station like Temple Meads, managers are sent out into the subways and such like to advise passengers, and they wear orange vests. If they didn't people would never find them amongst the crowds.

 

[tsr]

I may have misinterpreted your post, I thought you were referring to the initial lane closure advance warning signs, rather than the signage at the point where the lane becomes closed. Obviously those who chose to continue into any closed section of road are idiots!
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It makes a lot of sense for customer service staff on platforms to be highly visible (hence giving them a 'hi viz'!) so that people can locate them when needed. It would be very difficult indeed to identify somebody wearing just a dark uniform on a packed rush hour platform full of commuters wearing similar clothing. When the info systems go down at a major station like Temple Meads, managers are sent out into the subways and such like to advise passengers, and they wear orange vests. If they didn't people would never find them amongst the crowds.

Regarding the first part of your post: Yes, quite, also my apologies for any misunderstanding. And the number of people driving down closed roads is getting to a very dangerous level - I speak from experience! Too many times people don't seem to expect a hazard on a closed road, after thinking that the signage is somehow irrelevant and driving down there anyway.

Regarding the second part: high-visibility clothing is one option for people giving out information, but another would be to have clearly non-high-visibility but nonetheless bright and distinctive uniforms. For example, similar to the GatEx staff uniform, which includes a red jacket, but perhaps brighter. For people who are just giving out information, the fact that the clothing is "distinctive" would be more of a priority, rather than "safe"! Naturally, work like despatch and so on may require GO/RT clothing, and technical work will require it, which is understandable. To take one example, I have been in a team marshalling people and vehicles at a certain large event (which I shall not name) where the black uniform t-shirts were simply printed with large, very distinctive text, thus easily identifiable to visitors, and EN 471 Class 3 clothing was used for traffic management only.

 

[Old Timer]

I have to say I am finding some of the comments made on here somewhat disconcerting, as this indicates to me a major failure in the training and briefing arrangements.
In saying this I make no criticism of any poster at all, but I do criticise the managerial systems that have allowed such a basic lack of understanding to be so widespread and unrecognised.
Let me deal with a number of points.

Have TOC's now changed colour of railway Hi Viz

No. No-one but RSSB has the authority to do so insofar as staff entering onto the operational railway which is defined in Rule Book Module G1 section 6. This in effect includes the whole area inside the boundary fence.
Stations do not have a boundary, thus the platform edge becomes this for the purposes of the Rules and Rule Book Module G1 section 6 clearly excludes station platforms from the definition of the operational railway, with one modification. More in this later on.
Staff working on stations and platforms are thus not on or near the line and thus do not fall under the track safety rules, unless and until they place themselves in that position. More in this later on.

Orange is still the colour when on the line. A platform isn't considered being on or near the line but some TOCs like platform staff to be in HV to be visible to passengers.

As far as I'm aware, the only TOC's that require station staff to be in Orange Hi-Vis' are those who have to go "On or near the line", in line with their regular duties (ie attach or detach units).

Both these comments are absolutely correct.

Are T&W Metro station staff PTS trained? I seem to remember that some TOCs don't train their station staff nowadays, but they're expected to clear platforms of snow, lay grit and pick up litter, thus working 'on or near the line', as they're working within 1.25m on the platform.

Tyne & Wear Metro is a private operation and does not fall within the remit of RSSB, and is thus exempt from RSSB requirements although T&W elect to apply various Standards and Procedures through choice.

You are not defined as on or near the line when on a station platform, no matter how close to the edge you are.

Not correct. The definition of being on or near the line is extended to platforms when work is being undertaken. Rule Book Module G1 section – “On or Near the Line” second paragraph.

Stations I pass through, the platform / dispatch staff wear yellow or orange HiVis, depending on the grade they are.

As said, "working" means technical or engineering work. I would argue that snow clearing would come under the heading of cleaning, (which although at times a skilled job) would not usually come under the heading of technical or engineering.

Correct.
To add a little further to this, clearing snow is no different from sweeping and is not classed as engineering work. Under the arrangements with Network Rail however each station operator must have a station operations manual setting out the arrangements under which activities which will come within 2 meters of the platform edge are managed. Work in this area is undertaken on the basis of jointly agreed procedures. In the case of sweeping the platform of lining the edges, the operator must work towards trains, must be able to clearly see approaching trains and must be able to move clear to a position more than 2 metres from the platform edge before the train passes through. Some station operators may have more restrictive arrangements in place.

Orange is still the colour when on the line. A platform isn't considered being on or near the line but some TOCs like platform staff to be in HV to be visible to passengers.

It is if you are working withing 4'6" from the platform edge

Not correct. Where does this measurement come from ?

RAIB missed chance with after Seaburn incident to close the loop hole of what is concider to be "working" in relation to platform as if you read bulletin differing TOC's are operating differing standards when it comes to snow clearance of platforms. Whilst work is not overly technical work is being carried out in extreme condition of reduced visibility on surface which is uneven & slippery by nature of weather conditions.

Post incident management are now using 1.25m distance i.e clear platform from beyond 1.25m distance from platfrom edge(para19 of bulletin) to meet Safe System of Work, as beyond that figure P.T.S is not required.
What concerns me is due to fragmentation & sub contracting some cleaning companies employ staff who would not meet railway medical standards & as Seaburn incident showed very little or poor training & supervision of task in hand.

This is not entirely correct. Work on station platforms has been risk assessed and the exposure to staff from passing trains has been judged to be sufficiently low as to negate the need for PTS. As mentioned above work on the station will be covered by the arrangements set out in the station operations manual. The risk assessment should judge the issue with regards to poor underfoot conditions and should address the appropriate safety control measures. The same control measures will apply to sub-contractors as anyone else.

Your wrong in saying a platform is not considered on or near the line.

We have to have a SSOW if working on a platform.
Site Warden's if working over 2m from platform edge.
Working on or over yellow line then it changes

Incorrect. A Site Warden is only appointed when on or near the line. As the definition “on or near the line” only applies when within 1.25m of the platform edge, then a Site Warden CANNOT be appointed. Under the requirements of NR/L2/OHS/005 a Site Keeper is appointed in the station environment when work may encroach within 1.25m of the platform edge or 2.75m from OHL equipment. A competent Site Warden may act as a Site Keeper provided they have been duly briefed on the local station arrangements. An armband endorsed “Site Keeper” must be worn.

You cannot work within 1.25m on a platform, it then becomes red zone, which in every UK station is prohibited.

Any work that requires you to work within 1.25m would require a line blockage or T3 Possession

Both incorrect. The “red zone” prohibition (Zones now having been removed from the Rule Book). Work may take place on a station platform within 1.25m of the platform edge under Lookout arrangements as long as the required sighting times can be achieved.

Taking Rule Book it could be argued then that all platform dispatch staff should be P.T.S trained on the grounds that:-

A They are non track workers.
B They are doing work of a technical nature.

Platform despatch staff do not place themselves at risk from approaching trains as they are not allowed to come with 1.25 m of a moving train. When despatching a train they must move more than 1.25m away from the train

But shovelling snow less than 1.25m is classed as techincal, you can't have one rule for dispatch staff and one for P-way workers who could be seen as doing the same when out on track

Clearing snow does not require the person to be trained in basic track skills. It is not therefore an engineering based skill. There is very little difference between sweeping a platform for litter and brushing or moving away snow.

I'd really hope clearing snow isn't classed as a technical job - such that people will be unable to clear platforms and have to get proper teams in, at greater cost, and the end result being that they remain covered in snow and ice for longer with someone then slipping under a train...

I'm pretty sure that when they go out to put down grit, or shovel snow (not sure if this is back on the platform, or on the track) they do at least start at the far end of the platform and work back - facing oncoming trains. I presume this is to move away if a train approaches, or at least be able to give a signal back to a driver that, could, potentially get worried.

Both correct.

My understanding is that within 1.25 meteres of a platform edge you are on or near the track (it's not called on or about any more apparently).

On my many PTS and DP renewal courses, I am constantly told that you can walk on the track on your own with a PTS, but cannot do anything else as this is classified as work..

Correct

You cannot walk on the line with just a PTS, a COSS has to be appointed if there is 2 or more people, as a PTS you can walk on your own in a T3 possession to and from sites.

If you want to walk on your own whilst train are running you have to be a IWA

Both incorrect. A person holding a valid PTS card can walk anywhere on the Railway provided they can meet the requirements for reaching a position of safety.
A lone person can only WORK if they are an IWA or a COSS. A PTS holder can work provided that they position themselves more than 3m from the nearest line, or are separated from the line by a structure or a fence – for example within a location case compound.

The rule book is silent on what to do if two PTS only colleagues are walking on their own towards each other....

This is a training/briefing failure. Two people together form a group. Two (or indeed more) PTS holders may pass one another without restriction provided that they are on their own. The separation distance applied is 20m when two or more people arrive and want to walk on the track.
When two independent PTS holders are passing one another, neither may distract the other. If it is necessary for them to converse then either one must act as COSS or both must move to a position more than 3m from the nearest line or behind a fence or structure. They are then classed as no longer on or near the line and may communicate without restriction.