Radio programme: 'Reversing Dr Beeching'

[SWTCommuter]

A radio programme about line re-openings in Scotland

11am 24 June BBC Radio 4

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0120783

Without much fanfare, Scotland has been systematically reversing Dr Beeching's cuts to rural rail services. In the last 30 years, 62 railway stations in Scotland have reopened- more than anywhere else in the British Isles. In December 2009 the Airdrie to Bathgate Line which had been closed to regular passenger traffic since 1956 started to run again. The reopened service brought rail to an area which had lived without it for half a century. Rail reopenings have enjoyed a cross party consensus in Scotland - but can the programme survive public spending cutbacks

 

[CosherB]

I really don't see the mystery here (rail lines re-opening in Scotland whereas similar lines in England would remain closed).

The Scots get lots of stuff financed that we English don't - they get free precriptions, free university fees etc. No surprise there is more money available for rail as well north of the border.

Does Scotland generate all this extra wealth itself? NO! It comes from English tax payers! Ever wondered why there are so many Scots in English politics and no English members in the Scottish Parliament? There is a one-way flow of taxpayers money north over the border!

Does it bother me? You bet it does!

 

[tbtc]

Ever wondered why there are so many Scots in English politics and no English members in the Scottish Parliament?

Does it bother me? You bet it does!

No, I've not wondered this. But then there are half a dozen English-born SNP MSPs at Holyrood...

 

[TDK]

I really don't see the mystery here (rail lines re-opening in Scotland whereas similar lines in England would remain closed).

The Scots get lots of stuff financed that we English don't - they get free precriptions, free university fees etc. No surprise there is more money available for rail as well north of the border.

Does Scotland generate all this extra wealth itself? NO! It comes from English tax payers! Ever wondered why there are so many Scots in English politics and no English members in the Scottish Parliament? There is a one-way flow of taxpayers money north over the border!

Does it bother me? You bet it does!

Think you will find it comes from BRITISH taxpayers

 

[yorksrob]

I'm afraid that there are only two reasons why we haven't had any re-openings in England. The Tory and Labour parties in London.

 

[CosherB]

Think you will find it comes from BRITISH taxpayers

No. What Scots taxpayers contribute stays in Scotland. What English taxpayers contribute finances England, and also contributes to Scotland.

 

[steamybrian]

I'm afraid that there are only two reasons why we haven't had any re-openings in England. ..........

There have been a number of lines reopened in England since closure under "Beeching"-

Romsey-Eastleigh (closed passengers in 1969)
Blackfriars- Farringdon (closed completely in 1960s)
Walsall-Stafford
Coventry-Leamington Spa
Coventry-Nuneaton
Aylesbury-Aylesbury Vale
Oxford-Bicester
Nottingham-Mansfield-Worksop
Kettering-Corby-Melton Mowbray
Blackburn-Clitheroe-Hellifield (closed 1962)
Birmingham Moor Street-Snow Hill-Wolverhampton (part tram, part heavy rail)
Wakefield-Pontefract
Around London three lines have been reopened to regular passenger services which were originally withdrawn many years ago-
Clapham Jn- Willesden Jn
Dalston-Stratford
Dalston- New Cross/ NewCross Gate (part of Broad Street line closed 1985)

 

[tbtc]

It should also be born in mind that the Scottish reopenings (pre Airdrie - Bathgate) have generally been relatively short distance (Anniesland line, Alloa branch, stub from the ECML to Newcraighall, reopening Whifflet and Paisley Canal)... A2B and the Borders line will be the first proper "long" extensions.

Still plenty of lines in Scotland that aren't being opened (Cowdenbeath - Perth, Borders - Carlisle...)

 

[yorksrob]

I'm afraid that there are only two reasons why we haven't had any re-openings in England. ..........

There have been a number of lines reopened in England since closure under "Beeching"-

Romsey-Eastleigh (closed passengers in 1969)
Blackfriars- Farringdon (closed completely in 1960s)
Walsall-Stafford
Coventry-Leamington Spa
Coventry-Nuneaton
Aylesbury-Aylesbury Vale
Oxford-Bicester
Nottingham-Mansfield-Worksop
Kettering-Corby-Melton Mowbray
Blackburn-Clitheroe-Hellifield (closed 1962)
Birmingham Moor Street-Snow Hill-Wolverhampton (part tram, part heavy rail)
Wakefield-Pontefract
Around London three lines have been reopened to regular passenger services which were originally withdrawn many years ago-
Clapham Jn- Willesden Jn
Dalston-Stratford
Dalston- New Cross/ NewCross Gate (part of Broad Street line closed 1985)

Good Point.

I should have specified the more recent lacklustre record (apart from Corby which, come to think of it was quite recent)

 

[reb0118]

Scotland contributes about 10% to the treasury and receives about 9% in return. A person resident in Scotland on £30 grand pa cateras paribus pays the same level of taxation as an English resident on £30 grand.

What's different in Scotland now is that we choose how to spend our share of the revenue via the Scottish Parliament.

I could just as easily say that I'm sick of subsidising benefit junkies in Yorkshire through my taxation.

A solution for England might be more regional representation?

 

[Flying Snail]

No. What Scots taxpayers contribute stays in Scotland. What English taxpayers contribute finances England, and also contributes to Scotland.

Don't let facts get in the way of your superiority complex, Captain.

http://breakingnews.heraldscotland.com/breaking-news/?mode=article&site=hs&id=N0089911308739726965A

"Scotland is in a stronger budget position than the UK as a whole for the fifth consecutive year, according to new figures.

The 2009-10 report, compiled by Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers), included a portion of North Sea oil and gas revenues.

It shows Scotland contributed 9.4% of UK public sector revenue while receiving 9.3% of total expenditure, including a share of UK debt interest payments...."

 

[Metroland]

I'm afraid that there are only two reasons why we haven't had any re-openings in England. The Tory and Labour parties in London.

And of course lack of political will..

Transport is something we rely on everyday, but few seem interested in improving. Especially when the solutions do not always fit people's ideologically (aka unlimited freedom, cheap fuel and so on).

You only have to look at the lacklustre support for HS2 (and the constant moaning over the WCML upgrade)! Britain gets the transport system it wishes for. While there is more political will in Scotland, I have seen constant moaning over the Edinburgh tram and Borders rail link.

England likes to moan as well: Cambridgeshire guided busway, NET tramway extension, as well as objections to road projects.

In summary there seems to be few political points for supporting improvements to transport and reduction of greenhouse gases, some of the most pressing problems of our time.

 

[A0]

I'm afraid that there are only two reasons why we haven't had any re-openings in England. ..........

There have been a number of lines reopened in England since closure under "Beeching"-

Romsey-Eastleigh (closed passengers in 1969)
Blackfriars- Farringdon (closed completely in 1960s)
Walsall-Stafford
Coventry-Leamington Spa
Coventry-Nuneaton
Aylesbury-Aylesbury Vale
Oxford-Bicester
Nottingham-Mansfield-Worksop
Kettering-Corby-Melton Mowbray
Blackburn-Clitheroe-Hellifield (closed 1962)
Birmingham Moor Street-Snow Hill-Wolverhampton (part tram, part heavy rail)
Wakefield-Pontefract
Around London three lines have been reopened to regular passenger services which were originally withdrawn many years ago-
Clapham Jn- Willesden Jn
Dalston-Stratford
Dalston- New Cross/ NewCross Gate (part of Broad Street line closed 1985)

You could also include the Stansted Airport branch as that used part of the old formation of that line.

Wasn't part of the Merseyrail system a restoration of Beeching withdrawl?

I'd also add the 'new builds' which have taken place since Beeching:

HS1
Heathrow spur

and, whilst not part of the national network, Jubliee line extension, DLR (which reused defunct national lines in the East end of London).

And currently in progress, Crossrail.

 

[LE Greys]

How many of the English ones have been instigated (I don't mean opened) in the privatisation era? Reopenings in England have essentially stalled, while they are still going on in Scotland.

 

[Metroland]

I do find it quite incredible that the Borders rail link is going ahead, essentially a railway in the back end of beyond, yet England seems to be unable to get it's act together over East West Rail, linking some of the of the biggest economic powerhouses outside London (Oxford, Cambridge, Reading, etc) via one of the fastest growing cities in the country - Milton Keynes, now 270,000 inhabitants and virtually non-existent when the railway was closed to passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

I do find it quite incredible that the Borders rail link is going ahead, essentially a railway in the back end of beyond, yet England seems to be unable to get it's act together over East West Rail, linking some of the of the biggest economic powerhouses outside London (Oxford, Cambridge, Reading, etc) via one of the fastest growing cities in the country - Milton Keynes, now 270,000 inhabitants and virtually non-existent when the railway was closed to passengers.

I must admit, I'll happily moan about guided busways if they're where the railway ought to be.

I fully agree regarding East West. Although not as grand, I'd also add Uckfield - Lewes, Tavistock, Skipton - Colne, Leigh, Dunstable, etc.

 

[LE Greys]

I fully agree regarding East West. Although not as grand, I'd also add Uckfield - Lewes, Tavistock, Skipton - Colne, Leigh, Dunstable, etc.

As do I!

 

[WestCoast]

A solution for England might be more regional representation?

The North East rejected a regional assembly, although it would have had far more limited powers than the Scottish Government.

Geographically speaking, parts of the North of England are further away from London than parts of Wales are.

Some in the regions (away from "Middle-Britain") feel so very isolated and separate from London, and feel some of the benefits that the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish populations get are deeply unfair, considering we are a union. Free university places in Scotland vs. massive fee increases in England is a significant issue that is causing an underlying resentment of devolution in some areas of England.

Devolution is a good thing, but such massive deviations in policy are literally dividing the UK. It probably doesn't help that a lot of my family are Scottish....

Back on-topic, it sounds like an interesting slot.

 

[LE Greys]

There are parts of Scotland that feel very isolated from the Central Belt that dominates Scottish politics. Would that mean a Western Isles Assembly would be a good idea? Probably not, since we would be going down the Passport to Pimlico route if that went too far.

 

[pappleby]

I must admit, I'll happily moan about guided busways if they're where the railway ought to be.
in my opinion,who ever thought of 'guided busways' in the first place,should be put against a wall and shot!---

 

[TDK]

No. What Scots taxpayers contribute stays in Scotland. What English taxpayers contribute finances England, and also contributes to Scotland.

So what the taxpayers pay in scotland including VAT, fuel duty, income tax, and all the other taxes stay in Scotland? Have you any evidence to back up your claims

 

[WestCoast]

There are parts of Scotland that feel very isolated from the Central Belt that dominates Scottish politics.

Yet 70% of the population in Scotland live in the Central Lowlands.

The majority of people in England don't live in London or the South East.

Just a point, I am not saying that anyone's views should be ignored.

 

[PinzaC55]

If you think about the millions which are to be squandered on HS1 or HS2? (I don't know what the damned thing is called) and translate that into lines which could be reopened in England and Wales for the same total outlay you get a measure of the problem.

 

[northwichcat]

The Scots get lots of stuff financed that we English don't - they get free precriptions, free university fees etc. No surprise there is more money available for rail as well north of the border.

The same principle applies to Wales as well and yet the government is shutting down the North West Regional Development Agency and Yorkshire Forward due to no money for funding.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I must say that after all the cutbacks in all areas, I was astonished to find that The Ordsall Chord project was quite happily funded and it was not subjugated to a "London" project:roll:.

There was talk that the British cost of the current Libyan conflict resolution would be "tens" of millions of pounds at the outset, yet this week, the cost was revealed to have reached £250 million.

 

[tbtc]

Yet 70% of the population in Scotland live in the Central Lowlands.

The majority of people in England don't live in London or the South East.

Just a point, I am not saying that anyone's views should be ignored.

Its an interesting point. Despite the sparse population of northern Scotland there's still 158s on the Far North (despite the slow speeds), plenty 170s get to Inverness etc, so the "fringe" of Scotland gets better looked after than the (more populated) "fringes" of England...

 

[radamfi]

It could be argued that England already benefits from hundreds of miles of fast track (100 mph+) with a very comprehensive rail network in the South East, much of it electrified. So Scotland is basically just 'catching up'. Crossrail and the Thameslink Programme are pretty expensive projects too, compared to Scottish reopenings. The WCML upgrade, HS1, Metrolink and London Overground are also examples of £billions spent on English rail.

 

[tbtc]

It could be argued that England already benefits from hundreds of miles of fast track (100 mph+) with a very comprehensive rail network in the South East, much of it electrified. So Scotland is basically just 'catching up'. Crossrail and the Thameslink Programme are pretty expensive projects too, compared to Scottish reopenings. The WCML upgrade, HS1, Metrolink and London Overground are also examples of £billions spent on English rail.

This is an interesting point - the English lines you mention are essential links based on modern travel patterns, rather than reopening historic lines.

I'd rather we concentrated on 21st centuary demand (e.g. the North London Orbital thread, which could link the main lines to Airports/ new towns) than opened a historic line (which some get misty eyed over). For example, if Skipton - Colne wasn't an old line then nobody would be suggesting a new line over that stretch of the Pennines were a priority.

 

[yorksrob]

This is an interesting point - the English lines you mention are essential links based on modern travel patterns, rather than reopening historic lines.

I'd rather we concentrated on 21st centuary demand (e.g. the North London Orbital thread, which could link the main lines to Airports/ new towns) than opened a historic line (which some get misty eyed over). For example, if Skipton - Colne wasn't an old line then nobody would be suggesting a new line over that stretch of the Pennines were a priority.

You're probably aware that I take the diametrically opposite view

However, I would point out that by your argument, large numbers of our routes probably wouldn't have been built if we were starting from scratch nowadays.

One of the things that IMO McNulty has got completely wrong is in suggesting that local routes should be re-orientated around local timetables. The regional railway is of most use to local areas when it feeds into the wider national network. Local areas already have a local network centered around themselves - the bus network. Why use the railway to duplicate what the buses are already doing?

It's not a question of people just travelling between Lewes and Uckfield for example, it's about how that link fits in to the wider network.

If you look at the links which are suggested for re-opening, it's actually a tiny proportion of the number of routes that have actually closed. However, they are the ones that would plug a gap in that network, either allowing for travel between disconnected areas (such as the Weald and the South Coast) or joining large towns that are missing from it (such as Leigh).

I'm afraid that all the while there is a threat hanging over even the existing regional network, that I and many others rely on each day, let alone blocking new links such as those suggested, I'm afraid that I just can't get excited at the prospect of spending billions on a high speed line, which in all likelyhood will end up as an overpriced racetrack to ferry pampered businessmen around the country.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many of the English ones have been instigated (I don't mean opened) in the privatisation era? Reopenings in England have essentially stalled, while they are still going on in Scotland.

From some quick googling of Steamybrian's list I make it 5, and one of those was by TFL.

 

[Red Dragon]

I guess as far as the politicians and treasury are concerned light rail would be seen as part of the overall rail spend too, so they would add Manchester Metro, Midland Metro, Sheffield Tram, Nottingham ............