Radio One's Big Weekend and Northern Rail

[TUC]

Radio One are holding its 'Big Weekend' at Carlisle this week. Its the station's biggest event of the year with much traffic congestion expected on major routes.

A great opportunity to promote the benefits of rail travel to a new generation of passengers but what does Northern Rail do? Rather than spot the business opportunity it puts posters up at its stations warning that the last trains from Carlisle are before the event ends at 10 pm!

What an advert for the rail industry-to tell young people that if they want to be out after 10 pm they mustn't rely on the rail industry. Is it really beyond Northern Rail's wit or ability to have put on additional services after 10 pm given the high number of potential passengers?

 

[Max]

Are there issues with signal boxes closing early?

 

[driver9000]

Normal Sunday timetable running.

Last VT to Edinburgh is 21:04
Last TPE to Manchester is 21:15
Last VT to Crewe is 21:20
Last Scotrail to Dumfries is 21:22
Last VT to London Euston is 18:50
Last VT to Glasgow is 22:53

At least Northern have made passengers aware of the last trains running. I've not seen any posters from Scotrail, TPE or Virgin. The signal boxes on some of the routes close after the last train has run so it may not have been possible to negotiate extra paths beyond 'switching out' time.

 

[ushawk]

I would have thought most people from other parts of the country are staying in hotels and locals may drive there, although parking is £10.

 

[tbtc]

Normal Sunday timetable running.

Last VT to Edinburgh is 21:04
Last TPE to Manchester is 21:15
Last VT to Crewe is 21:20
Last Scotrail to Dumfries is 21:22
Last VT to London Euston is 18:50
Last VT to Glasgow is 22:53

At least Northern have made passengers aware of the last trains running. I've not seen any posters from Scotrail, TPE or Virgin. The signal boxes on some of the routes close after the last train has run so it may not have been possible to negotiate extra paths beyond 'switching out' time.

So Northern are getting the blame (whilst at least trying to inform passengers and avoid anyone getting stranded through lack of knowledge), yet the other TOCs aren't running later trains either?

 

[driver9000]

If Northern are getting flak it's only because they have attempted to make passengers aware of the last trains. There were even posters warning of potential overcrowding on Northern Rail services this weekend and on the website too. I am yet to see a poster from another TOC referring to Radio 1 festivals.

http://www.northernrail.org/news/6836

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I think Northern deserves a clap to be honest, at least they've publicised the fact trains are running extremely busy, and warning of possible problems. Good for them!

 

[strange6]

I think Northern deserves a clap to be honest, at least they've publicised the fact trains are running extremely busy, and warning of possible problems. Good for them!

Northern are certainly one of the best TOC's for customer service and they get a lot of flak for things which are quite often not in their control. Personally, I think they provide an excellent service taking into account what they have at their disposal.

 

[Lampshade]

There are posters up at Preston warning passengers the DalesRail services will be busier than normal.

 

[175001]

Why is Northern Rail to blame? Signal boxes close early and yesterday the WCML was shut on what was the most inconvenient of weekend. Blame Network Rail for all that!

 

[TUC]

It is a sad indictment of the industry though that it isn't able to respond to an event finishing at 10 pm. After all we're talking about an extra journey onto 2 0r 3 routes, not all night running.

I recgognise the issues raised above but they do smack of 'it can't be done because of operational reasons' rather than a customer focus on solving problems and quickly responding.

 

[driver9000]

The franchised TOCs aren't going to show much interest in running extra services late at night when most festival goers will travel by road given that it is door to door and the large amount of gear (tents etc) they will most likely be carrying. Over this weekend I haven't seen the trains full of festival goers and in fact the trains didn't seem any busier than normal (except for the football fans yesterday). The huge expense involved in running extra trains probably wouldn't stack up against the revenue they would generate once you factor in the cost of paths, keeping boxes open, paying the signalmen overtime to man them, extra train crew being brought in to work them, extra fuel used for the services and getting the stock back in place for Monday mornings service which could be many miles away. It's not an ideal situation for the industry but the days of scratch rakes for being hauled by a freight loco or anything else on wheels the depot could spare are long gone. TOC fleets are finite and don't carry much in the way of a 'float' for additional services. This isn't unique to Northern who as I pointed out are the only operator to publicly say their timetabled last trains are the last ones that night and I also pointed out that the other operators serving Carlisle are also closing at the normal times, which for some destinations is well before 22:00.

You could argue that the companies who missed a trick here are WCRC, DRS and DB with their sizeable charter fleets and locomotives could have run a few Festival charters from key stations.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When the Colne Blues Festival is on around here, the last train from Colne to Blackburn (and all stops in between) is at 0015 (or so) instead of the usual 2200 finish. But the entire route falls under Preston PSB (a PSB being a 24/7 signalbox).

 

[driver9000]

The additional train for the Colne blues festival is the last arrival of the night which normally returns to Blackpool as empty stock. It's easier to run that as a passenger service because the path already exists.

 

[175001]

Indeed just like yesterday and Friday evening up at Clitheroe where the last dep off Vic, which usually runs empties to Blackpool, worked an additional stopper service to Blackburn as there was a beer festival up there.

 

[lemonic]

Last year I went to Radio 1's Big Weekend in Bangor, North Wales and both Virgin Trains and Arriva Trains Wales put on extra trains as far as Crewe/Chester or Holyhead and although some of these weren't that busy, the Virgin Voyager to Crewe certainly was.

 

[bluenoxid]

Radio One are holding its 'Big Weekend' at Carlisle this week. Its the station's biggest event of the year with much traffic congestion expected on major routes.

A great opportunity to promote the benefits of rail travel to a new generation of passengers but what does Northern Rail do? Rather than spot the business opportunity it puts posters up at its stations warning that the last trains from Carlisle are before the event ends at 10 pm!

What an advert for the rail industry-to tell young people that if they want to be out after 10 pm they mustn't rely on the rail industry. Is it really beyond Northern Rail's wit or ability to have put on additional services after 10 pm given the high number of potential passengers?

Both Cumbria and Tyne Valley have signal boxes, whilst the Aire Valley has engineering works between Skipton and Shipley today.

Oh and you run a train full of drunk kiddies at 3am in the morning.

 

[TUC]

Both Cumbria and Tyne Valley have signal boxes, whilst the Aire Valley has engineering works between Skipton and Shipley today.

Oh and you run a train full of drunk kiddies at 3am in the morning.

More like 10.30 pm rather than 3 am. Not everyone who goes to a festival gets drunk, especally probably not a BBC one who are likely very strict about alcohol on site-and, even if they had been drinking, I'd still rather have my son or daughter coming home on a train rather than driving or hitching!

 

[Greenback]

As we have seen on similar threads about sporting events in Cardiff, the disruption to rostering, stock movements etc make extra late night trains, particularly at weekends. more trouble than they are worth. Add in engineering work and the expense of keeping signal boxes open and they just aren't going to happen. The only exception, as has been mentioned, is where empty stock movements can be made for public use.

 

[323235]

Not everyone who goes to a festival gets drunk, especally probably not a BBC one who are likely very strict about alcohol on site-and, even if they had been drinking, I'd still rather have my son or daughter coming home on a train rather than driving or hitching!

Indeed,I went to Reading and saw very few people who I would label as Drunk,mainly because for every crate of beer there was probably 12 people drinking it.

Plus most people realise If you drink too much at a festival you miss the music,in which case there wasn't a lot of point spending £200+ to come if you miss the bands you really love.

Having said that I saw a hell of a lot of people selling,taking and popping pills, some of which they didn't even know what they were.

 

[Max]

Just to defend Northern again, from my experience, when there is a big event on, they do make efforts to accommodate extra people. For example, on my local line they always put on extra carriages on the last service (2300) after the Freedom Festival in Hull.

 

[DarloRich]

As we have seen on similar threads about sporting events in Cardiff, the disruption to rostering, stock movements etc make extra late night trains, particularly at weekends. more trouble than they are worth. Add in engineering work and the expense of keeping signal boxes open and they just aren't going to happen. The only exception, as has been mentioned, is where empty stock movements can be made for public use.

that is the most dperessing part of the 21st century railway isnt it! I understand the problems but it has to be worth trying to run an extra couple of services. If marketed correctly they must be able to turn a profit. You have a captive audience needing travel.

it can be done - an example being the Tall ships shuttles run by Northern last year. Half hourly all day form about 0800 to 2400 (and beyond) Darlington - Sunderland. I am sure boxes on that line close out fairly early. it xcan be done, there just has to be the will

 

[Greenback]

In some cases it is easier than others. Where there is ane vent or sporting fixture that is going on until late in the evening, the TOC has to find additional train crew for any extra trains. At weekends, this cna impact on the next day's service and beyond, due to the requirments to have a minimum of 12 hours break between duties.

As well as that, you have the problems and cost of getting the trains back to where they should be for the next day. When you add in the management time needed ot organise these services, liaise with NR over paths, negotiate with staff side, then you can see why it is not worth it for what might be at ebst a very small profit.

For events such as tall ships, which tend to attract people over a longer period than a massive peak at the conclusion of a rugby match or festival, then I would imagine that the economics are probably rather different.

 

[DarloRich]

In some cases it is easier than others. Where there is ane vent or sporting fixture that is going on until late in the evening, the TOC has to find additional train crew for any extra trains. At weekends, this cna impact on the next day's service and beyond, due to the requirments to have a minimum of 12 hours break between duties.

As well as that, you have the problems and cost of getting the trains back to where they should be for the next day. When you add in the management time needed ot organise these services, liaise with NR over paths, negotiate with staff side, then you can see why it is not worth it for what might be at ebst a very small profit.

For events such as tall ships, which tend to attract people over a longer period than a massive peak at the conclusion of a rugby match or festival, then I would imagine that the economics are probably rather different.

but many of those ttrains either ran full or empty or seemingly as a shuttle for bashers! . I think with a little effort it could have been made to work. BUT the economics need to stack up. Perhaps Northern looked at it and felt there was no return, perhaps they didnt bother - who knows. ( i suspect the first - just to be clear!)

 

[tbtc]

For events such as tall ships, which tend to attract people over a longer period than a massive peak at the conclusion of a rugby match or festival, then I would imagine that the economics are probably rather different.

Agreed, the Tall Ships is a positive example, but one where you are "ferrying" around a balanced mix of people accross several hours (during the daytime when boxes are open etc), not trying to deal with a big boisterous rush at the end of a festival (anti social working hours etc)

(apologies for the "ferrying" pun)

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Radio 1 were biasing their ticket allocation to residents of Carlisle and the surrounding area, so compared to normal festivals there was perhaps not as many people travelling from further away. Also, there can't be that many people rushing off at the end of a festival to catch a late night train home given that the traffic leaving is usually a nightmare so getting to the train station at a reasonable hour would have been a challenge. Most people coming a distance will be staying over somewhere I would imagine.

I could maybe see a a Carlisle-Manchester and Carlisle-Glasgow service attracting some loadings, but to say the railways have missed a trick is a little over the top.

 

[DarloRich]

Agreed, the Tall Ships is a positive example, but one where you are "ferrying" around a balanced mix of people accross several hours (during the daytime when boxes are open etc), not trying to deal with a big boisterous rush at the end of a festival (anti social working hours etc)

(apologies for the "ferrying" pun)

they kept the boxes open and ran until everyone got home. I think the last one back to Darlo was sometyhing like 0100 off Hartlepooh ( got the timetbable in a box somewhere)

 

[Anvil1984]

Also I dont think the rail staff will be rushing for overtime on those shifts to be honest, the last Cumbrain Coast service on a Friday and Saturday is quite hairy and often require a police escort