Racism

[The Barlow Boy]

That's very familiar. It's called "Stop and Search" with the Met Police (London), it's actually a formal "crime reduction strategy", see news report clip about it. It's alleged that London's black youth are targeted more than other racial groups.

That's because most street crime and stabbings are commited by young black men but the right-on types are in denial about it. We know that the current crop of terrorist bombers are young radicalised Muslim males so why are sixty year old grannies being searched at Gatwick and Heathrow in the name of anti terrorism?
Because everyone is terrified of being labelled a racialist.

 

[Badger]

Yes, because Anders Breivik is a young radicalised Muslim. Gotta be careful with these things.

 

[Mojo]

Unfortunately some are trying to "solve" minority issues by introducing minority-only schools etc and that just cannot work as it further ostracises them from the community.

It depends on the extent to which this is being done. In my experience, school children can do downright hurtful things which can have significant impacts mentally on the victim(s), a problem which does not exist to that extent in many workplaces. At the moment, many schools are not providing a safe place for those from certain individuals in which to learn.

It should be a job for those in education to teach students at school the importance of equalities and maintaining good community relations between different characteristics (the below taken from the Equalities Act 2010).

age
disability
gender reassignment
marriage and civil partnership
pregnancy and maternity
race
religion or belief
sex
sexual orientation​

Unfortunately there seems to be much of a belief in the society that the minority in all of the above groups (and women in the case of sex) are living a rosy lifestyle where everything is happy; when in reality for a number of people face harassment, embarrassment, discrimination and/or hurt on a daily basis, for a characteristic they cannot choose (although some of the 'protected characteristics' mentioned above could be described as a choice). Indeed, the top story on the BBC News home page at present is the perfect example of some of the hurt which one particular group is currently facing and feeling.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Yes, because Anders Breivik is a young radicalised Muslim. Gotta be careful with these things.

You're quite correct about the crazy Viking but I was referring to the U.K.'s current crop.

 

[WestCoast]

Even a radicalised Muslim might not look as you may picture one, after nine eleven there were demands to profile "young Middle Eastern looking males". However, the man who tried to commit mass murder on the plane over Detroit was a Black Nigerian and Richard Reid, the "shoe bomber" who tried to do the same thing on a flight from Paris to the States, was a White British man.

As for airport security, that's for another thread, but some of it apppears to be purely 'for show'.

 

[SS4]

Yes, because Anders Breivik is a young radicalised Muslim. Gotta be careful with these things.

I wonder how much of the blame for terrorism can be laid at religion's door?

• 9/11
• The Troubles (in part)
• 7/7
• Madrid Train Bombings
• Various incidents in Nigeria
• Egypt (to a degree)
• Bali bombings
• Mumbai Bombings
• Anders Breivik
• Kosovo genocide

I've included religious extremists as they're using their faith to justify terrorism. This may be a little shady I admit

It depends on the extent to which this is being done. In my experience, school children can do downright hurtful things which can have significant impacts mentally on the victim(s), a problem which does not exist to that extent in many workplaces. At the moment, many schools are not providing a safe place for those from certain individuals in which to learn.

It should be a job for those in education to teach students at school the importance of equalities and maintaining good community relations between different characteristics (the below taken from the Equalities Act 2010).

age
disability
gender reassignment
marriage and civil partnership
pregnancy and maternity
race
religion or belief
sex
sexual orientation​

Unfortunately there seems to be much of a belief in the society that the minority in all of the above groups (and women in the case of sex) are living a rosy lifestyle where everything is happy; when in reality for a number of people face harassment, embarrassment, discrimination and/or hurt on a daily basis, for a characteristic they cannot choose (although some of the 'protected characteristics' mentioned above could be described as a choice). Indeed, the top story on the BBC News home page at present is the perfect example of some of the hurt which one particular group is currently facing and feeling.

Does religion or belief extend to atheism? iirc it does but I'm not 100% sure

 

[L&Y Robert]

Isn't this a RAILWAY forum?

 

[Greenback]

Isn't this a RAILWAY forum?

Yes, but this is the general discussion area, where non railway threads are allowed!

 

[NSEFAN]

Does religion or belief extend to atheism? iirc it does but I'm not 100% sure

As far as I know it does. It's an opinion on the matter, and people shouldn't be discriminated against just for having an opinion. If they are using it as an excuse to be violent or abusive, such as with terrorism, then that's a different issue.

Isn't this a RAILWAY forum?

Every forum needs a religion debate every once and a while. It's perfectly normal behaviour for a healthy discussion board.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Yes, but this is the general discussion area, where non railway threads are allowed!

Oh - OK then.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

I wonder how much of the blame for terrorism can be laid at religion's door?

• 9/11
• The Troubles (in part)
• 7/7
• Madrid Train Bombings
• Various incidents in Nigeria
• Egypt (to a degree)
• Bali bombings
• Mumbai Bombings
• Anders Breivik
• Kosovo genocide

I've included religious extremists as they're using their faith to justify terrorism. This may be a little shady I admit



Does religion or belief extend to atheism? iirc it does but I'm not 100% sure

Ah, religious wars. Where one group of people get stuck into another group of people because their imaginary friend is better than the other's or alternatively the way that they worship their imaginary friend is better than the other's.

 

[Oswyntail]

Ah, religious wars. Where one group of people get stuck into another group of people because their imaginary friend is better than the other's or alternatively the way that they worship their imaginary friend is better than the other's.

As SS4 seems to realise, you cannot really conflate "religion" with the acts of certain high-profile "followers" of that religion. For instance, are "The Troubles" really about issues of religion (after all, both sides are from the same religion) or about perceived exploitation of a native minority by an immigrant majority? Anders Breivik does not put religion as a reason for his actions, simply saying he is a Christian when asked. The Kosovo genocide was more ethnic than religious. We are left with a group of events (in SS4s list) of Al Qaeda inspired attacks - while these were carried out by people professing Islam, their language and aims are purely political, and do not have any true foundation in the Quran. I would go so far as to say that any "religious" conflict you can name has stronger roots in economics than in religion.
The problem is that, if you treat them as religious conflicts you are venturing into the sphere of the "irrational", so you cannot meaningfully use the language of rationalism to describe them. This plays into the hands of the gangsters responsible.

 

[Butts]

As SS4 seems to realise, you cannot really conflate "religion" with the acts of certain high-profile "followers" of that religion. For instance, are "The Troubles" really about issues of religion (after all, both sides are from the same religion) or about perceived exploitation of a native minority by an immigrant majority? Anders Breivik does not put religion as a reason for his actions, simply saying he is a Christian when asked. The Kosovo genocide was more ethnic than religious. We are left with a group of events (in SS4s list) of Al Qaeda inspired attacks - while these were carried out by people professing Islam, their language and aims are purely political, and do not have any true foundation in the Quran. I would go so far as to say that any "religious" conflict you can name has stronger roots in economics than in religion.
The problem is that, if you treat them as religious conflicts you are venturing into the sphere of the "irrational", so you cannot meaningfully use the language of rationalism to describe them. This plays into the hands of the gangsters responsible.

As well as religion it seems to me the "combatants" in this sphere seem to be largely working class wheras the "brains" or instigators being largely from the higher classes.

Take NI during the troubles there was very little violence in middle class areas where Protestants and Catholics lived side by side, however the Falls and Shanklin a different matter.

Is this down to a lack of education ?

 

[Oswyntail]

As well as religion it seems to me the "combatants" in this sphere seem to be largely working class wheras the "brains" or instigators being largely from the higher classes.

Take NI during the troubles there was very little violence in middle class areas where Protestants and Catholics lived side by side, however the Falls and Shanklin a different matter.

Is this down to a lack of education ?

Loads of factors, portrayed simplistically as "religion". I'd go for economics as the root cause!

 

[The Barlow Boy]

As well as religion it seems to me the "combatants" in this sphere seem to be largely working class wheras the "brains" or instigators being largely from the higher classes.

Take NI during the troubles there was very little violence in middle class areas where Protestants and Catholics lived side by side, however the Falls and Shanklin a different matter.

Is this down to a lack of education ?

Yes, a lot of trouble nowadays is caused by a lack of education. In very many cases irrational fear is caused by a lack of knowledge of what's causing the fear. In many of the troubles between factions of religion (Protestant and Catholics, Ba'aths and Sunnis) it gets more tribal like. Football supporters are a fine example. Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic, Liverpool and Everton. The first of the pair being tradditional Catholic teams, the latter of the pair being tradditionally Protestant teams.

 

[SS4]

I don't think it's a lack of education so much as religious institutions can still get hold of children from an early age and manipulate their minds. Dawkins explains it far better than I in The God Delusion. I'd be interested to see how religion works in Sweden which iirc has a high percentage of atheism.

I would say that economics has a bigger factor though. In times of privation one tries to find hope in a better future, religion fulfils this role well insofar as if one behaves well one will get one's reward in the afterlife - it has to be suitably vague so that it cannot ever be proven or disproven and the promise perpetuated. Not for nothing did Marx say religion is the opiate of the masses (granted I've probably taken that out of context).
The economic hardship is greater for the most part though.

Additionally the so-called holy books are also suitably vague as to grant plausible deniability and multiple interpretations. The Qu'ran mentions jihad as both an internal and external struggle iirc, the former is more prominent but the latter has merit and provides justification for extremism (my knowledge is sketchy here, I'd more than welcome corrections). Not being allowed to seriously and publicly question these passages of religious books or even to denounce sections leads to a shield for extremists and fundamentalists to hide behind. In this Christianity has a major lead of the major faiths because it does brook public criticism

 

[LE Greys]

If it comes right down to it, you might find that an awful lot of 'religious' conflicts are actually territorial, and many are driven by a 'double minority' problem. Catholics are a minority in Northern Ireland, Protestants are a minority in the whole of Ireland, and both sides saw/see themselves as being on the defensive. Ten years ago, I would have said it was all over, now I'm getting a bit worried that it might flare up again. Israel, the other big one, has been fought over at least as far back as the days of Ancient Egypt, way before someone called Jesus ever showed up. That's because Jerusalem is a crossroads, placed where the Egypt-Persia trade route meets the Europe-Far East trade route. It's a place a lot of people want, and the fact that three separate religions consider it the Holy Land just makes it worse.

 

[WestCoast]

I don't think it's a lack of education so much as religious institutions can still get hold of children from an early age and manipulate their minds. Dawkins explains it far better than I in The God Delusion. I'd be interested to see how religion works in Sweden which iirc has a high percentage of atheism.

On paper, the Czech Republic also has surprisingly high rates of atheism compared to its closest neighbours and even Sweden, their 2011 census showed that 79.4% of the population that chose to give their 'religion', considered themselves as agnostic, atheist or irreligious. Academics have put forward many historical reasons for this including a legacy of nationalism and the rejection of imported Catholicism.

 

[jon0844]

Ah, religious wars. Where one group of people get stuck into another group of people because their imaginary friend is better than the other's or alternatively the way that they worship their imaginary friend is better than the other's.

But most religions are about power, so that's exactly why it happens. Someone creates a religion to control the people, and that means attacking the non-followers and getting followers to find new followers. Suggesting that you might die a horrible death if you don't support said religion also helps!

I consider myself an atheist, but not particularly bothered by people who are religious. However, even atheists can spend a lot of time attacking religious people for their beliefs, which means atheism is essentially another religion.

It means that Scientology pretty much qualifies as a religion (and a religion can be like a cult) and I'd add Apple to the list too... although the spell has been lifted a bit post Steve Jobs. Sure, I followed the WWDC keynote yesterday and went 'wow' at the new MacBook Pro, but I didn't feel it cast me under a spell to go and buy one as previous events..

 

[Oswyntail]

I don't think it's a lack of education so much as religious institutions can still get hold of children from an early age and manipulate their minds. Dawkins explains it far better than I in The God Delusion. ...

Dawkins is actually rather disappointing, on this as in most things, committing the prime scientific faux pas of starting with a premise and only finding evidence that supports it. A little bit fourth form, if you ask me .Lack of education, however, is a critical factor, whether or not you blame "religious institutions". Without education, people's minds are just waiting to be filled with irrelevant claptrap, whether it is calls to Jihad or to support Blues over Greens (classical reference here!)

But most religions are about power, so that's exactly why it happens. Someone creates a religion to control the people, and that means attacking the non-followers and getting followers to find new followers. .....

I think you are utterly wrong Religions have never been "created", but tend to develop like most thought patterns. What you describe is when power-hungry individuals see an opportunity and exploit it - sometimes using the religion as a tool (Al Qaeda, Crusades), and, at others, using it as a totem to oppose (Nero, Dawkins, Bush)