Quote from Modern Railways on advance fares

[YorkshireBear]

Right im currently sat reading the Alan Williams column in Modern Railways. I am going to extract this quote on advance fares.

'Not so long ago, taking advantage of the cancellation of a meeting to travel on on an earlier train thatn i had booked, the ticket was thurst back at me with no more than a gruff'not valid on this train'.
This was certainly true of the reservation - but as it happened not the ticket. How many passenegers less wise to the ways of TOCs would have simply accepted his ultimatum and bought another ticket?'

Right... thoughts from the experts here, have i misunderstood something here or is it written in rules that only reservation becomes invalid. Or is this the case that he paid for an anytime ticket with a reservation....

 

[FGWman]

I should imagine the ticket he had was an off peak, super off peak or anytime and the ticket checker had not noticed.

 

[swt_passenger]

I should imagine the ticket he had was an off peak, super off peak or anytime and the ticket checker had not noticed.

That was my interpretation of the point he was making, but I think if I wasn't on my booked service with a flexible ticket, I'd have binned the reservation coupon...

I notice in the same article he claims a success about the 'issue' of Sunday Guildford services not being shown in the XC timetable. But they were shown in the notes as a dated service, because for the majority of the timetable period in question Reading - Wokingham was closed every weekend for Reading remodelling works - and that's what XC do when a service doesn't run over a long period.

 

[Simon11]

His article (or rant) was poorly written, I'd expect an article like that to be written by the sun

Page 96 bottom right column, he suggested that the National Conditions of Carriage should be "More widely available than they are at present". If passengers wish to see this document, it's very easy to locate this online and if they make a ticket purchase online, they have a chance to read these conditions.

The way he talked about fare increases sounded like it was written more like a national newspaper,
"On the very day that the rest of us were forking out up to 11%"
Why is Alan trying to be a scare monger? Fares on average have gone up by 6%, please quote that figure instead of saying "up" to 11%. If he wishes to state the top fare increase, he should only then quote the lowest fares increases such as 0% on some TOC's super off peak tickets.

Another scare monging(How do you spell this word? ) quote:
"And of course, with every above-average fare rise, rail becomes less competitive with the long distance coach and air. A standard anytime return from Kings Cross to Newcastle now costs over £300, Paddington to Cardiff almost £200. These and other similar increases surely now put ordinary turn up and go rail travel decisively beyond the reach of the average family"
For long distances, I'm sure most families would prepare their travel plans in advance and be able to get some decent fares which far outway coach prices and taking into account comfort, frequency and speed of the train.

I'm not sure what the issue is with TOC's hiding behind a smoke screen regarding what the average fare increase was. The average fare increase will be around the 6% for most TOCs.....its in black and white.....
Some mistakes would have been made this time around resulting in some fares being higher than the average, but this is due to the transport minister deciding at the last, last minute that she wishes to change the increase from 8% to 6%. The process of calculating the new fares and making sure there are no anomalies takes a couple months, however the last minute decision meant they had to re-run the models in two weeks....

I get the impression that Alan doesn't know too much around the subject of fares... Although I do agree he made 1-2 few decent points.

 

[142094]

We must remember that not everyone buys a ticket online and not everyone has access to the internet. Stations should have copies, although they are often reluctant to get one for you.

Best thing to do would be to have some sort of leaflet available that anyone can pick up.

 

[SS4]

His article (or rant) was poorly written, I'd expect an article like that to be written by the sun

Agreed.

Another scare monging(How do you spell this word? ) quote:

Scaremongering

"And of course, with every above-average fare rise, rail becomes less competitive with the long distance coach and air. A standard anytime return from Kings Cross to Newcastle now costs over £300, Paddington to Cardiff almost £200. These and other similar increases surely now put ordinary turn up and go rail travel decisively beyond the reach of the average family"
For long distances, I'm sure most families would prepare their travel plans in advance and be able to get some decent fares which far outway coach prices and taking into account comfort, frequency and speed of the train.

Nah, what you usually get is the most expensive train fare being compared against the cheapest air fare. Airline ticketing is strictly limited by the amount of seats on the plane and it's easy to turn people away at an airport if necessary.

I'm not sure what the issue is with TOC's hiding behind a smoke screen regarding what the average fare increase was. The average fare increase will be around the 6% for most TOCs.....its in black and white.....
Some mistakes would have been made this time around resulting in some fares being higher than the average, but this is due to the transport minister deciding at the last, last minute that she wishes to change the increase from 8% to 6%. The process of calculating the new fares and making sure there are no anomalies takes a couple months, however the last minute decision meant they had to re-run the models in two weeks....

I get the impression that Alan doesn't know too much around the subject of fares... Although I do agree he made 1-2 few decent points.

Stats can say whatever the reader wants them to say. Someone who wanted to say the trains did not need subsidy would point out the low end of the rises. Or someone could compare off-peak rises ignoring super off peak and anytime.

Alan's angle is to say that passengers are being charged more without seeing a comparable increase in seats/facilities. A leaflet with the NRCOC on (a la timetable) would be interesting

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think the point about the NRCoC is a good one. Back in the days when printed copies were actually made and distributed to stations, didn't they used to have an explicit notice to booking office staff telling them that the NRCoC should not be publicly displayed and only offered if a passenger explicitly asked for a copy?

 

[Squaddie]

For long distances, I'm sure most families would prepare their travel plans in advance and be able to get some decent fares which far outway coach prices and taking into account comfort, frequency and speed of the train.

Yes, they would -because they have to. It's a circular argument. When I was young it was quite possible for my parents to decide at very short notice during school holidays to take us all to London for the day: such impulses are now completely out of the question.

And while I agree that trains are (usually) quicker than buses, my own experience of coach travel is that they are significantly more comfortable and offer a more pleasant environment than Standard accommodation on most trains.

 

[SS4]

Yes, they would -because they have to. It's a circular argument. When I was young it was quite possible for my parents to decide at very short notice during school holidays to take us all to London for the day: such impulses are now completely out of the question.

And while I agree that trains are (usually) quicker than buses, my own experience of coach travel is that they are significantly more comfortable and offer a more pleasant environment than Standard accommodation on most trains.

My experience of coach travel is of kneeing my chin because they don't understand that some people are over 6 foot. The train can be just as bad but at least you can get up more easily on a train.

I agree that families have to book in advance now walk up fares are expensive

 

[island]

And yet again the old chestnut is wheeled out of how walk-up train tickets are so much more expensive than advance-booked flights.

 

[Smethwickian]

For long distances, I'm sure most families would prepare their travel plans in advance and be able to get some decent fares which far outway coach prices and taking into account comfort, frequency and speed of the train.

Except that by being forced to book in advance in order to be able to afford to travel, the 'frequency' - whether the TOC runs other services five times a day or five times every hour - effectively reduces to one single departure, as booked.

That's pretty much the offering I, personally, get from Virgin between Birmingham and London - it may advertise a 20 minute service but it's too expensive for most trips I would like to make.

 

[Max]

For long distances, I'm sure most families would prepare their travel plans in advance and be able to get some decent fares which far outway coach prices and taking into account comfort, frequency and speed of the train.

You would think this was the case. I thought this once upon a time. However, having now worked in an office selling National Express and Megabus I have been shocked at how many families wish to travel hundreds of miles at the drop of a hat. This could be for a number of reasons, from University interviews and visits, to family illness, to impulse trips. So when people come to me asking about fares and I suggest the alternative of the train, I hear horror stories about it costing hundreds! Should we really have to plan our journeys 3 months in advance to make them remotely affordable? I'm not so sure.

 

[Yew]

Personally I didnt like it when a few months ago when the Head of ATOC said that if you book in advance you get cheaper fares, as thats not true, He meant to book advance fares, that not a comparable product to an anytime ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

Personally I didnt like it when a few months ago when the Head of ATOC said that if you book in advance you get cheaper fares, as thats not true, He meant to book advance fares, that not a comparable product to an anytime ticket.

The advertising from the likes of Thetrainline and many TOCs are deliberately vague about this though, so it's understandable that those who don't know a lot about railway ticketing could be misled into believing that simply buying in advance is cheaper.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Personally I didnt like it when a few months ago when the Head of ATOC said that if you book in advance you get cheaper fares, as thats not true, He meant to book advance fares, that not a comparable product to an anytime ticket.

Yes, that gets my goat too. Look at this link to Transpennine Express's online booking facility.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/train-tickets/advance-bookings/

"You could save up to 50%" it crows but nowhere does it mention either that you can buy advance purchase tickets at stations, or that these magical 50% off fares are not available on all their journeys (try getting an advance purchase ticket from Doncaster to Cleethorpes for example).

And why does it mention no less than 3 times that there's no booking fees as if that's some kind of selling point? Hardly anybody else charges booking fees either, certainly not stations, where at least you get a human being who can take you through all the ticket options if you're not familiar with train travel.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, The Trainline charge booking fees, and as they have the most aggressive advertising policy, it's probably worth pointing out advantages over them!

 

[island]

Well, The Trainline charge booking fees, and as they have the most aggressive advertising policy, it's probably worth pointing out advantages over them!

RSH is starting to advertise now; I hope people will start to move over because thetrainline has no advantage.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:roll: Are there ever any circumstances when a rail ticket booked via Trainline is actually cheaper than the same ticket booked directly from a booking office or via a TOC website?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, that gets my goat too. Look at this link to Transpennine Express's online booking facility.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/train-tickets/advance-bookings/

"You could save up to 50%" it crows but nowhere does it mention either that you can buy advance purchase tickets at stations, or that these magical 50% off fares are not available on all their journeys (try getting an advance purchase ticket from Doncaster to Cleethorpes for example).

And why does it mention no less than 3 times that there's no booking fees as if that's some kind of selling point? Hardly anybody else charges booking fees either, certainly not stations, where at least you get a human being who can take you through all the ticket options if you're not familiar with train travel.

It's about perception rather than the whole story.

Way back in the day Connex had adverts saying that if you bought an annual ticket with them, they would only charge you for 40 weeks. There is nothing factually wrong with that statement, but people could read that as Connex charging less than other companies.

You could save upto 50% (compared with buying on the day) when buying through TPE. People may assume this means they are cheaper than anyone else, but they do not say that. There is also no guarantee that you will save money compared with using another company.

TPE do not charge booking fees. People may assume that others do without checking that and book with TPE instead. That said, booking fees are different to postage fees, and so on.

:roll: Are there ever any circumstances when a rail ticket booked via Trainline is actually cheaper than the same ticket booked directly from a booking office or via a TOC website?

I can't think of a reason it would be, but they don't want you to think that.

 

[142094]

:roll: Are there ever any circumstances when a rail ticket booked via Trainline is actually cheaper than the same ticket booked directly from a booking office or via a TOC website?

Probably never, unless they had some promotion on which saved more money than the booking/credit card fees.

 

[lyesbkz]

The advertising from the likes of Thetrainline and many TOCs are deliberately vague about this though, so it's understandable that those who don't know a lot about railway ticketing could be misled into believing that simply buying in advance is cheaper.

I encounter a lot of people who have paid walk-up fares in advance, and the main problem is they think that their tickets are only valid on the service stated on the Reservation coupon (linking back to the OP too!)

They would simply bin the Off-Peak ticket and buy a new one thinking they could not possibly catch the next service if they missed their train!

 

[thedbdiboy]

I think the point about the NRCoC is a good one. Back in the days when printed copies were actually made and distributed to stations, didn't they used to have an explicit notice to booking office staff telling them that the NRCoC should not be publicly displayed and only offered if a passenger explicitly asked for a copy?

Although in theory the printed version of the NRCoC was always available from staffed stations, in practice, the presence of copies was vey hit and miss in years back. Each ticket office is still required to have a copy, and to provide it on request, but I would argue that having the NRCoC online (at www.nationalrail.co.uk/NRCOC) makes it vastly more accessible to vastly more people than it ever was in the good old days.

 

[island]

:roll: Are there ever any circumstances when a rail ticket booked via Trainline is actually cheaper than the same ticket booked directly from a booking office or via a TOC website?

There are some rewards and cashback websites that might occasionally make this the case (e.g. I once saw £10 cashback for a thetrainline purchase of over £20).

Also, I suppose if you contrived to put the last advance ticket of a particular fare band into your basket on thetrainline and then searched the same journey on some other website, the price would come out higher. This depends on how far you are willing to stretch your definition of "same" though, as it's not the "same" ticket type

 

[LexyBoy]

Also, I suppose if you contrived to put the last advance ticket of a particular fare band into your basket on thetrainline and then searched the same journey on some other website, the price would come out higher. This depends on how far you are willing to stretch your definition of "same" though, as it's not the "same" ticket type

QJump once sold me an advance fare from a lower tier than any other site was offering. This was clearly a bug though as I wasn't issued any reservations with the tickets!

 

[junglejames]

For long distances, I'm sure most families would prepare their travel plans in advance and be able to get some decent fares which far outway coach prices and taking into account comfort, frequency and speed of the train.

Are you suggesting they buy advance tickets?
Why? That is unfair. Train travel was always a reasonable way of being able to turn up and travel. Why cant we anymore? When looking at fares, we should look at the off peak and anytime fares. Yes passengers can get reasonable fares, but train travel as it used to be, is now stupidly expensive.

I can often book in advance, but I am very annoyed at the cost of having a little bit of freedom. I prefer that freedom, and actually sometimes need it. But quite often I have to treat trains like planes.

I get the impression that Alan doesn't know too much around the subject of fares... Although I do agree he made 1-2 few decent points.

He seems to make some very good points. Perhaps some sensationalism, but still valid points. So he mentions 11% and not 6%. Why should he not come out with the highest increase?The 6% figure is often used to hide what the true increase sometyimes is, and what he put was very true.

 

[Flamingo]

I think that Advance tickets have only succeeded in devaluing train travel, by disguising the real cost of it.

The thing to remember about train travel is it is heavily subsidised compared to other modes of travel - unlike cars, which, looking at the cost of road tax, tax on insurance, and the huge tax on fuel, mean that the car driver is an overall contributor to the tax pool, whereas the rail passenger is a recipient of tax subsidy.

Now as a tax payer, I can see the need to subsidise the rail network for the overall benefit to the economy as a whole, but that subsidy should be targeted at the requirement of commuters who are by definition contributing to the economy by travelling to work, not providing cheaper fares for Joe Blogs to decide on a whim that he wants to take the kids to the zoo tomorrow.

Advance ticket prices like a First Class ticket from Swansea to Bristol Parkway for under £5 (with railcard discount), £30 First Class from Cardiff to Paddington, and £19 (STD) from Luton Airport to Haverfordwest (to name three I have seen in the past few weeks), are ridiculously cheap - it is no wonder that the three individuals recoiled in horror when they were told what they would have to pay for using them as flexible tickets.

Train travel is expensive - that's a fact of life. The only realistic way to bring it down is to increase the tax subsidy, either to directly subsidise the ticket prices, or to fund changes in the system (cheaper to run rolling stock, infrastructure changes to our essentially Victorian system) that will long-term result in efficiency savings. Personally, I think the users should pay, rather than those who don't use it.

 

[junglejames]

I think that Advance tickets have only succeeded in devaluing train travel, by disguising the real cost of it.

The thing to remember about train travel is it is heavily subsidised compared to other modes of travel - unlike cars, which, looking at the cost of road tax, tax on insurance, and the huge tax on fuel, mean that the car driver is an overall contributor to the tax pool, whereas the rail passenger is a recipient of tax subsidy.

Now as a tax payer, I can see the need to subsidise the rail network for the overall benefit to the economy as a whole, but that subsidy should be targeted at the requirement of commuters who are by definition contributing to the economy by travelling to work, not providing cheaper fares for Joe Blogs to decide on a whim that he wants to take the kids to the zoo tomorrow.

Advance ticket prices like a First Class ticket from Swansea to Bristol Parkway for under £5 (with railcard discount), £30 First Class from Cardiff to Paddington, and £19 (STD) from Luton Airport to Haverfordwest (to name three I have seen in the past few weeks), are ridiculously cheap - it is no wonder that the three individuals recoiled in horror when they were told what they would have to pay for using them as flexible tickets.

Train travel is expensive - that's a fact of life. The only realistic way to bring it down is to increase the tax subsidy, either to directly subsidise the ticket prices, or to fund changes in the system (cheaper to run rolling stock, infrastructure changes to our essentially Victorian system) that will long-term result in efficiency savings. Personally, I think the users should pay, rather than those who don't use it.

Yes the railways will always need subsidy. Some lines will never pay. Large infrastructure projects wont pay. I dont expect them to. Id be surprised if road building pays either.
However does reducing subsidy mean fares should be as high as they are? No, not really, and privatisation has paid some part in the horrendous price increases we have seen. Because of the poor structure we now have, it is very difficult to make profits, and with the Orcats system, companies are no doubt pushed into making fares more expensive than they need be.

Also has the increase in the number of cheap advance fares also caused prices to rise? If you reduced the number of advance tickets, and reduced the cost of off peak tickets, you may find you make more money. People no longer scared to pay for an off peak ticket, and now glad of the freedom they get.

 

[Flamingo]

Reducing subsidy will automatically cause fares to rise, as the slack has to be taken up somewhere, and the easiest way to do it is to pass the increase on to the user. Don't forget, the whole point of splitting up BR was to introduce efficiency from the private sector into a monopoly (the arguement now being given prior to the split-up of the NHS)

I don't think Advance fares have causes prices to rise, as they are a greater slice of revenue direct to the TOC (which may be the reason some trains seem to have such a high quota of them, but that's another issue...)

But, now that ridiculously cheap Advance tickets are out there, can the genie be put back into the bottle?

Imagine if any TOC said it was withdrawing it's Advance tickets and not taking part in the scheme (including connections), but reducing it's off-peak prices by 10%-20%. The screams of outrage would be deafening!

 

[junglejames]

Reducing subsidy will automatically cause fares to rise, as the slack has to be taken up somewhere, and the easiest way to do it is to pass the increase on to the user. Don't forget, the whole point of splitting up BR was to introduce efficiency from the private sector into a monopoly (the arguement now being given prior to the split-up of the NHS)

I don't think Advance fares have causes prices to rise, as they are a greater slice of revenue direct to the TOC (which may be the reason some trains seem to have such a high quota of them, but that's another issue...)

But, now that ridiculously cheap Advance tickets are out there, can the genie be put back into the bottle?

Imagine if any TOC said it was withdrawing it's Advance tickets and not taking part in the scheme (including connections), but reducing it's off-peak prices by 10%-20%. The screams of outrage would be deafening!

Oh decreasing subsidy will cause prices to rise, but by the amount we have seen since privatisation? No, thats been other things as well. A lot because of the style of privatisation.

As for removing advance fares. You couldnt just have one TOC doing it. However if all TOCs did it, or at least reduced them to a sensible number, and reduced the cost of off peaks, I dont think there would be a massive out cry. People nowadays are forced into buying advance tickets because of the cost. Even those that want freedom do so, and hang around for ages if necessary.
You get those that buy off peak tickets thinking they are advance fares. I can imagine they would be a lot happier if they now realised they definitely had a bit more freedom.

We never moaned before, having few Apex tickets, and reasonable Saver tickets. Why would we now? It would take some people to get used to it, but they would get used to it.

 

[Flamingo]

Oh decreasing subsidy will cause prices to rise, but by the amount we have seen since privatisation? No, thats been other things as well. A lot because of the style of privatisation.

As for removing advance fares. You couldnt just have one TOC doing it. However if all TOCs did it, or at least reduced them to a sensible number, and reduced the cost of off peaks, I dont think there would be a massive out cry. People nowadays are forced into buying advance tickets because of the cost. Even those that want freedom do so, and hang around for ages if necessary.
You get those that buy off peak tickets thinking they are advance fares. I can imagine they would be a lot happier if they now realised they definitely had a bit more freedom.

We never moaned before, having few Apex tickets, and reasonable Saver tickets. Why would we now? It would take some people to get used to it, but they would get used to it.

I don't have your confidence that it would go down as easily as you say. What does anybody else think?