Quick question about door operation on Azumas

[renegademaster]

I heard when running double unit they need to have 2 Train managers, is this for door operation reasons (as each unit can only control itself) or because customer experience reasons?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I heard when running double unit they need to have 2 Train managers, is this for door operation reasons (as each unit can only control itself) or because customer experience reasons?

I don't know but I can't think it will be a technical issue like door operations as most if not all EMUs working in multiples operate the doors from either unit. It will more likely be a union agreement (on some spurious safety grounds) that a train manager has to be on every unit

 

[StephenHunter]

I don't know but I can't think it will be a technical issue like door operations as most if not all EMUs working in multiples operate the doors from either unit. It will more likely be a union agreement (on some spurious safety grounds) that a train manager has to be on every unit

There needs to be someone on each unit in case of a medical situation.

 

[stadler]

The only restriction on the LNER 800/801 that i am aware of is that on a train formed of two units the Guard has to remain in the rear unit for the entire journey. But there does not have to be two Guards onboard. The door buttons control the doors across both units when they are coupled.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The only restriction on the LNER 800/801 that i am aware of is that on a train formed of two units the Guard has to remain in the rear unit for the entire journey. But there does not have to be two Guards onboard. The door buttons control the doors across both units when they are coupled.

That's my thoughts

 

[800001]

The train manager remains in rear unit, A CEL (customer experience leader) has to be in front unit.
The CEL is trained in basic emergency procedures, and knows how to reset passcomms etc.

If CEL is not available, a spare TM can be used as an absolute last resort.

If no one is available, rear 5 get locked out of use and the TM travels in the from 5 car.

 

[Russel]

There needs to be someone on each unit in case of a medical situation.

I always find this quite a weak argument, considering other trains run round all day doubled up with only a driver in the front set, no other staff, LO 710s, SE 376s and Networkers etc...

 

[stadler]

I always find this quite a weak argument, considering other trains run round all day doubled up with only a driver in the front set, no other staff, LO 710s, SE 376s and Networkers etc...

Yes i always find it a bit ridiculous that some TOCs have these policies but others manage fine without. Southern run 171+171 (formed of two units without gangways) and 171+171+171 units (formed of three units without gangways) every day and on these the Guard is allowed to be in whatever portion they choose. Sometimes they are in the front unit. Sometimes they are in the middle unit. Sometimes they are in the rear unit. So if it works fine for Southern than why not for other operators.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Yes i always find it a bit ridiculous that some TOCs have these policies but others manage fine without. Southern run 171+171 (formed of two units without gangways) and 171+171+171 units (formed of three units without gangways) every day and on these the Guard is allowed to be in whatever portion they choose. Sometimes they are in the front unit. Sometimes they are in the middle unit. Sometimes they are in the rear unit. So if it works fine for Southern than why not for other operators.

I can't imagine greater Anglia in their triple traction make too much of a co-ordinated effort to have someone in every unit but I might be wrong

 

[12LDA28C]

I always find this quite a weak argument, considering other trains run round all day doubled up with only a driver in the front set, no other staff, LO 710s, SE 376s and Networkers etc...

The method of operation on other Operators, whether DOO, DCO, Guards, Train Managers, OBSs or whatever is irrelevant. LNER are not about to change their rules based on what another TOC does.

 

[Russel]

The method of operation on other Operators, whether DOO, DCO, Guards, Train Managers, OBSs or whatever is irrelevant. LNER are not about to change their rules based on what another TOC does.

I didn't suggest they would.

I'm just stating that the reasons given for having staff in both units always look weak when you take into consideration unstaffed units has worked on swathes of the Southern region for 20+ years.

I'd suggest the only reason it hasn't been expanded is mostly down to the TOC's not wanting to pick a fight with the unions.

 

[Fokx]

Yes i always find it a bit ridiculous that some TOCs have these policies but others manage fine without. Southern run 171+171 (formed of two units without gangways) and 171+171+171 units (formed of three units without gangways) every day and on these the Guard is allowed to be in whatever portion they choose. Sometimes they are in the front unit. Sometimes they are in the middle unit. Sometimes they are in the rear unit. So if it works fine for Southern than why not for other operators.

Southern 171 services also stop more frequently, unlike intercity operators where the first station call may be over two hours time should a situation arise where the guard/TM/Staff presence is required

 

[Carlisle]

I

I'd suggest the only reason it hasn't been expanded is mostly down to the TOC's not wanting to pick a fight with the unions.

Rightly or wrongly I think you’ve got it the wrong way round as originally Voyagers etc ran double sets without needing 2 guards or an equivalent competent person in each set but the RMT at some point made a fuss & either FGW or Virgin capitulated first, followed by other Inter City TOCs so we are where we are.

 

[Russel]

Southern 171 services also stop more frequently, unlike intercity operators where the first station call may be over two hours time should a situation arise where the guard/TM/Staff presence is required

Scheduled stops may be infrequent, but I'm sure if needed, an emergency stop at a station could be arranged...

How many Intercity services have two hours running time between stations?

Rightly or wrongly I think you’ve got it the wrong way round as originally Voyagers etc ran double sets without needing 2 guards or equivalent competent personnel in each set but the RMT as some point made a fuss & Virgin capitulated followed by other Inter City TOCs so we are where we are

So they gave in because they didn't want a fight with the unions, as I said...

 

[littledude]

Scheduled stops may be infrequent, but I'm sure if needed, an emergency stop at a station could be arranged...

How many Intercity services have two hours running time between stations?



So they gave in because they didn't want a fight with the unions, as I said...

Lots of LNER services run fast between London and York, and between Newcastle and Edinburgh. The former is nearly 2 hours, the latter around 1hr 30.

 

[trebor79]

Lots of LNER services run fast between London and York, and between Newcastle and Edinburgh. The former is nearly 2 hours, the latter around 1hr 30.

So what? If there's a medical emergency the train is going to stop somewhere for an ambulance to meet it, regardless of staffing.

 

[Fokx]

So what? If there's a medical emergency the train is going to stop somewhere for an ambulance to meet it, regardless of staffing.

There’s a big difference between stopping in say London suburbia to get medical assistance compared to stopping in the middle of a field in countryside on a high speed line.

Similarly I wouldn’t like to be the TM of LNER/Avanti/GWR dealing with an incident that’s occurred at 125mph with up to 11 carriages worth of passengers single handedly either

 

[Carlisle]

There’s a big difference between stopping in say London suburbia to get medical assistance compared to stopping in the middle of a field in countryside on a high speed line.

Very unlikely you’d stop in a field, it’ll nearly always be a nearby local station the train’s scheduled to pass through.

 

[Russel]

There’s a big difference between stopping in say London suburbia to get medical assistance compared to stopping in the middle of a field in countryside on a high speed line.

But you wouldn't stop in a field, you'd stop at the nearest station, which is never that far away, the UK is only a small country.

The above London - York non stop example, you'd have Peterborough, Newark, Grantham, Doncaster to name but a few.

 

[800001]

But you wouldn't stop in a field, you'd stop at the nearest station, which is never that far away, the UK is only a small country.

The above London - York non stop example, you'd have Peterborough, Newark, Grantham, Doncaster to name but a few.

Not always the nearest station.
Often it is decided between the toc and the ambulance service, depending on there availability.
Eg might be nothing available at Grantham for 45 min, but one available at Peterborough.

 

[littledude]

So what? If there's a medical emergency the train is going to stop somewhere for an ambulance to meet it, regardless of staffing.

You asked the question ‘How many Intercity services have two hours running time between stations?’ so I answered your question. Quite simple really?

 

[357]

But you wouldn't stop in a field, you'd stop at the nearest station, which is never that far away, the UK is only a small country.

The above London - York non stop example, you'd have Peterborough, Newark, Grantham, Doncaster to name but a few.

Personally when I had my guard pop in the other day to tell me of a medical emergency, I elected to make a priority call to the signaller and ask for a clear run to London and an ambulance to meet us there, based on personal experience of response times.

It's not uncommon to continue to the next big station.

At the same time, having worked trains of 3 units with no gangway DOO, I'd far rather have someone in each unit on long distance trains. Not only from a safety POV but also customer service.

95% of my passcom operations are sorted on the move and without stopping the train, if this forums wish was granted then it's going to be far more likely to cause delays while things are investigated and trains back up behind me.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Personally when I had my guard pop in the other day to tell me of a medical emergency, I elected to make a priority call to the signaller and ask for a clear run to London and an ambulance to meet us there, based on personal experience of response times.

It's not uncommon to continue to the next big station.

At the same time, having worked trains of 3 units with no gangway DOO, I'd far rather have someone in each unit on long distance trains. Not only from a safety POV but also customer service.

95% of my passcom operations are sorted on the move and without stopping the train, if this forums wish was granted then it's going to be far more likely to cause delays while things are investigated and trains back up behind me.

There's an interesting point here, from replies here for me it's clear that having a member of staff on each unit is definitely a positive but then you ask the question, in the event you don't have a member of staff in one unit, do you cancel the train, lock the unit out or just let people sit in there as normal.

 

[Towers]

As above, it’s for the purposes of union agreement. There is no rulebook requirement for additional members of staff to be present in each portion of non-gangway stock running in multiple in normal circumstances, and indeed there are examples of both arrangements happening at the same time at the same TOC.

The method of operation on other Operators, whether DOO, DCO, Guards, Train Managers, OBSs or whatever is irrelevant. LNER are not about to change their rules based on what another TOC does.

They may do eventually, if GBR seeks standardisation. “What another TOC does” becomes very relevant indeed at that point!

 

[357]

There's an interesting point here, from replies here for me it's clear that having a member of staff on each unit is definitely a positive but then you ask the question, in the event you don't have a member of staff in one unit, do you cancel the train, lock the unit out or just let people sit in there as normal.

From my POV I'd rather it locked out on long distance work.

Metro work wouldn't and didn't concern me - until the TOC unstaffed all the stations.

A driver dealing with an emergency is constantly required in more than one location at the same time and has every man and their dog ringing them.

My own opinion: either have a member of staff in every unit or competent staff on every station.

 

[Blackpool boy]

There needs to be someone on each unit in case of a medical situation.

Are they all first aid trained then?

 

[Towers]

Are they all first aid trained then?

They’ll likely be trained to provide an appropriate initial response, including perhaps making contact with control staff, resetting activated Passcoms and so on, albeit under the distant supervision of the Train Manager.

 

[Blackpool boy]

They’ll likely be trained to provide an appropriate initial response, including perhaps making contact with control staff, resetting activated Passcoms and so on, albeit under the distant supervision of the Train Manager.

But that then applies to other situations such as rowdy behavoiur or threatening behaviour or fighting or leering after women - all which are bad but are not put as part of the justification for having another member of staff.

 

[357]

But that then applies to other situations such as rowdy behavoiur or threatening behaviour or fighting or leering after women - all which are bad but are not put as part of the justification for having another member of staff.

In this case dealing with a situation before a passcom gets pulled.

Trust me, it is far better to deal with incidents at 125mph than at 0mph if possible. Especially on two-track railways.

 

[43066]

At the same time, having worked trains of 3 units with no gangway DOO, I'd far rather have someone in each unit on long distance trains. Not only from a safety POV but also customer service.

Agreed. We occasionally have to lock rear units out of use due to no staff, but it’s pretty rare. Having a staff presence in each unit is preferable from a passenger point of view as well. Why on earth people want to see fewer staff on intercity trains “because it works on Southern/Southeastern” is beyond me.

They may do eventually, if GBR seeks standardisation. “What another TOC does” becomes very relevant indeed at that point!

I suspect after the debacles of the last few years we won’t see another attempt to expand DOO, or to change current arrangements, any time soon.