Quick question about a "warning"

[samt]

Evening all,

Thanks in advance for reading. I have received a warning of an offence "contrary to the Railway Bylaws: Byelaw 18.2". I have lodged a complaint about my treatment by the RPO so just have a few questions for anyone with more knowledge than myself!

When i left my train from Chapeltown to Sheffield, i put my ticket in the bin as it had been inspected on the train. I was therefore not able to produce a ticket on request. After the Revenue Protection Officer went through the process of taking my details, i went through the bin and found my ticket. At this point, the RPO's were off duty (to my despair!). My complaint to the train company was about the way i was made to feel criminalised. I also had to suffer the embarrassment of going through a dirty bin on my hands and knees in the middle of a busy station with nothing in terms of gloves etc.. I then saw the RPO leaving work, who refused to help me or apologies for the was in which they spoke to me. I digress...

I have kept my ticket, and i also have my credit card statement matching the date and cost of my ticket. So my question to you all is: Do the company have any grounds to fine/prosecute as i did not produce a ticket? Advice would be much appreciated.

Many Thanks

 

[6Gman]

Evening all,

Thanks in advance for reading. I have received a warning of an offence "contrary to the Railway Bylaws: Byelaw 18.2". I have lodged a complaint about my treatment by the RPO so just have a few questions for anyone with more knowledge than myself!

When i left my train from Chapeltown to Sheffield, i put my ticket in the bin as it had been inspected on the train. I was therefore not able to produce a ticket on request. After the Revenue Protection Officer went through the process of taking my details, i went through the bin and found my ticket. At this point, the RPO's were off duty (to my despair!). My complaint to the train company was about the way i was made to feel criminalised. I also had to suffer the embarrassment of going through a dirty bin on my hands and knees in the middle of a busy station with nothing in terms of gloves etc.. I then saw the RPO leaving work, who refused to help me or apologies for the was in which they spoke to me. I digress...

I have kept my ticket, and i also have my credit card statement matching the date and cost of my ticket. So my question to you all is: Do the company have any grounds to fine/prosecute as i did not produce a ticket? Advice would be much appreciated.

Many Thanks

They almost certainly do have legal grounds for a prosecution. You failed to produce a ticket on request. Offence.

Whether - under the circumstances - they have a moral case is another matter ..........

 

[najaB]

I have kept my ticket, and i also have my credit card statement matching the date and cost of my ticket. So my question to you all is: Do the company have any grounds to fine/prosecute as i did not produce a ticket?

Yes, they do. The warning is of the possibility of a prosecution under section 18.2 of the Railway Byelaws which states:

18. (2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

You didn't show the ticket when asked, so you are guilty of an offence. You'll have to wait and see what the TOCs next move is.

 

[samt]

They almost certainly do have legal grounds for a prosecution. You failed to produce a ticket on request. Offence.

Whether - under the circumstances - they have a moral case is another matter ..........

Thanks for response. As I feared then. What would your advice be? Pay the admin fee and appeal with my evidence? What would you predict the response would be? My ticket also has a time stamp that corresponds with my card transaction etc..

Cheers

 

[Clip]

Its important to clarify here what sort of warning that you received.

A warning that in future you could be prosecuted or a warning that this time you could be prosecuted.

How you felt you were treated is not that relevant really as they were doing their jobs as revenue protection officers dealing with a person who did not have a valid ticket when requested to provide one and one which can lead to a criminal conviction.

 

[table38]

On the Newcastle Metro, the bins have a sign saying "No Tickets - retain for inspection" or similar. Wouldn't it be a good idea to extend that idea to the railway?

 

[samt]

A warning that I could be prosecuted. I have no previous record of unpaid fares if that's what you are getting at?

 

[Clip]

And whilst you may have retrieved a ticket can you be sure that it matches the time that you say you purchased yours? And look at it from their point of view that you may have shared that ticket with someone else and it was only you who got caught.

Not what you really want to hear but if they warned you that you may be prosecuted this time there isn't much help anyone can give you until you receive a letter from them asking for your version of events or what they may prosecute you under.


Also sorry for the extra post but the forum keeps kicking me out on me phone when I try to edit last post

 

[samt]

And whilst you may have retrieved a ticket can you be sure that it matches the time that you say you purchased yours? And look at it from their point of view that you may have shared that ticket with someone else and it was only you who got caught.

The ticket was only a single which expired at sheffield so not sure how someone could have re used it from sheffield?

Time definitely matches the time I told them I purchased mine, matches exactly with my card statement.

I accept that people make excuses to these people all the time, but that is no excuse for treating somebody with no dignity and offering poor customer service, whatever the suspicion

 

[najaB]

A warning that I could be prosecuted. I have no previous record of unpaid fares if that's what you are getting at?

What does it say in full, you mentioned an admin fee?

 

[samt]

What does it say in full, you mentioned an admin fee?

"However, i not that you have not come to our attention previously, and taking into account the adverse consequences that a conviction may have and having given the matter due consideration, i am prepared on behalf of EMT to give you the opportunity to settle this matter, by accepting a Warning in lieu of Prosecution"

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I can't see how any of us can advise samt without knowing what the Company is proposing in the letter :

What does it say in full, you mentioned an admin fee?

This is exactly what we need to know!

Please tell us precisely what outcomes the Company is proposing and what it is seeking from you, if anything. Is it really only a 'warning' with no other action by either party?

 

[samt]

Apologies, I'm trying to cut it down to the essentials but I must keep missing what you're after.

Essentially they are just wanting £70 admin fee if I agree to accept a warning and will take no further action.

£70 seems a lot considering the evidence I have though and the fact I genuine ally didn't do anything wrong

 

[Clip]

Sorry but I didnt see in your OP where it said they had already sent you a letter.

If they have then please type it out here.

You also mention this

"However, i not that you have not come to our attention previously, and taking into account the adverse consequences that a conviction may have and having given the matter due consideration, i am prepared on behalf of EMT to give you the opportunity to settle this matter, by accepting a Warning in lieu of Prosecution"

Which is why I asked you that in the first place. This sounds like they are warning you and do not want anything from you at all.

Please be very clear with everything you have recieved from them because it makes it much easier for people to assist.

 

[Stigy]

Evening all,

Thanks in advance for reading. I have received a warning of an offence "contrary to the Railway Bylaws: Byelaw 18.2". I have lodged a complaint about my treatment by the RPO so just have a few questions for anyone with more knowledge than myself!

When i left my train from Chapeltown to Sheffield, i put my ticket in the bin as it had been inspected on the train. I was therefore not able to produce a ticket on request. After the Revenue Protection Officer went through the process of taking my details, i went through the bin and found my ticket. At this point, the RPO's were off duty (to my despair!). My complaint to the train company was about the way i was made to feel criminalised. I also had to suffer the embarrassment of going through a dirty bin on my hands and knees in the middle of a busy station with nothing in terms of gloves etc.. I then saw the RPO leaving work, who refused to help me or apologies for the was in which they spoke to me. I digress...

I have kept my ticket, and i also have my credit card statement matching the date and cost of my ticket. So my question to you all is: Do the company have any grounds to fine/prosecute as i did not produce a ticket? Advice would be much appreciated.

Many Thanks

So the RPOs made you look through the bin? I assumed that was later, given how they were off duty when you found it. The £70 is their admin costs which, to be fair are quite reasonable. You say you've done nothing wrong, but I'm afraid you have, albeit unwittingly. Your evidence is not evidence I'm afraid, as it's merely a rail ticket, which could belong to anybody (remember, they don't know you from Adam!). That is what Byelaw 18(2) exists, as it protects companies from situations whereby you could 'find' a ticket later on, even though it's not yours.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . they are just wanting £70 admin fee if I agree to accept a warning and will take no further action. . . .

Thanks. That's the vital piece of information - you are being given a choice, and we can advise you of the outcomes of each possibility to help you to make an informed decision.

A) You pay the £70:00 and there is no more to be said or done about 'the failure to produce a valid ticket on demand'. It would be an entirely different matter for you to take up the alleged innapropriate behaviour.

[My assessment is that this is the best outcome for people who have other things towards which they wish to devote their time, energy and money. The challenge about 'staff behaviour' is always weak if the passenger has conceeded a payment in lieu of further investigation; it is even weak if there is evidence that the alledged offence had, technically been committed, even if the passenger does not conceed the fact].

B) You decline the 'offer' and refute the allegation. You will face the probable prospect of a Prosecution based on the evidence in the Inspector's report. That will be heard in a Magistrates Court in a few months time, you would presumably be contesting the allegation, and to maximise your prospects of success, (and to enhance the quality of evidence and detail in the Judgement which will asssist a subsequent Appeal, you will be instructing an experienced Criminal Defence Barrister at a cost ca. £2k). Your evidence of the 'found' ticket and bank statement are not going to refute the Offence - there is no suggestion in a Byelaw 18.2 Offence that the passenger had not bought a ticket, and that will not be what is claimed to the Court.

It is hard to see how your allegation of innapropriate behaviour will influence the very simple test which must be satisfied to succeed with a Byelaw 18.2 prosecution. (It is a matter of fact that the number of complaints about the behaviour of Guards and Inspectors is disproportionately high from those persons who have been passengers detected unable to produce a valid ticket when asked. That disproportionate ratio will have no bearing on the outcome in a Court hearing after a contested Byelaw 18 Offence, but will be notable to anyone investigating your 'complaint' of innaprioriate behaviour.)

[It is my assessment that this is the best action for those willing and able to invest in a matter of principle which, following a probably failed defence in the Magistrates Court, are willing to invest £40k - £80k on an Appeal to make a difference for other rail passengers in the future; that would be the consequence of the Appeal succeeding as a consequence of some good reason why the Byelaw 18 Offence cannot be applied to those who find their ticket after having failed to produce it on demand. A reason which has not been articulated before now. There would be no real advantage to you if the Appeal succeeded (other than avoiding a prosecution for a non-recordable Offence) and a considerable cost. If the Appeal failed, you will bear the cost of your Barrister and the Company's legal representation, and prsumably a fine. The prospect of a successful hearing in the Magistrates Court will be maximised by instructing a competent Barrister, but they do not exceed 50 / 50. A local Criminal Defence solicitor will be much less expensive with reduced prospects of a transition to a successful Appeal].

Does this help you to decide?

 

[furlong]

Alternatively you could send a polite letter with your explanation, ticket, credit card statement and a statement that you had in fact paid the correct fare for your journey etc. along with a cheque, and request that in the circumstances they agree not to cash the cheque.

 

[jon0844]

I'd pay and then write to customer services, providing all the evidence you can. Include details of when you bought the ticket, from which machine (suggesting/hinting they could check the CCTV) and when it was checked on the train etc.

Also point out that if there were checks, who else threw that same ticket in the bin that you managed to find? Wouldn't they have been found without a ticket too?

Ultimately, you might simply find they take your word for it and refund you as a goodwill gesture.

Or they might not, and you're no worse off - bar the cost of your time to write/email.

 

[island]

£70 seems a lot considering the evidence I have though and the fact I genuine ally didn't do anything wrong

Unfortunately, you're still not getting it. You have genuinely done something wrong. It's a criminal offence, as quoted above, to fail to hand over your ticket when requested to do so by an authorized person.

As mentioned above, I would suggest paying the sum requested to avoid either (a) being prosecuted in court or (b) additional admin fees being added to the sum owed.

I would not suggest taking forward complaints of rudeness or other inappropriate conduct on the staff. On mature and honest reflection, I think you will come to the conclusion that the staff member was behaving politely and appropriately, albeit that the line of discussion and questioning was one which made you uncomfortable due to your actions.

 

[najaB]

So my question to you all is: Do the company have any grounds to fine/prosecute as i did not produce a ticket? Advice would be much appreciated.

If I were to find myself in your current situation, I would:

1. Take a deep breath and look at the situation objectively.
2. Pay the admin fee.
3. Write a letter to customer services saying how upset/disappointed I am with the situation.
4. Give up any hope of seeing the £70 again.
5. Remember to keep my ticket until I'm out of the station in future.

It may not be what you wanted to hear, but as DaveNewcastle said earlier, fighting it will cost you a lot of time, worry and money and is highly unlikely to be successful.

 

[samt]

Thank you all for the time you spent offering your advice. I thought you may want to know the outcome. After submitting my evidence, the train company decided that they would not charge me the admin fee and closed the issue.

I would like to add that they were very helpful dealing with the matter. In terms of the complaint, they said that they will deal with it internally so i will obviously not know the ultimate outcome.

Thanks again.

 

[bb21]

Very good. Thanks for letting us know.