Questions about driving trains.

[richieb1971]

Why do yellow lights flash sometimes? See it Acton Bridge a few times.. as well as other places.

 

[GB]

Indicates to the driver the route has been set for a diverging route.

http://www.davros.org/rail/signalling/articles/junctions.html

 

[driver9000]

Its quite probable I know very little. I thought this thread was to educate people like myself who know very little.

I remember the day well when 56113 came through. A man said to me when the light between the tracks goes yellow get prepared for the 56 to arrive. So I know the light was for the 56, I just don't know why it came on and what relevance to the driver it has.

All I know for certain about signalling is the zoning procedure. Which states that green is line speed.. Double amber is a prelim caution and is usually found just after a green. A single amber means "caution" and that the next light is red. At a single amber the train should have slowed enough to stop at the next light if its red. Red is danger. Under no circumstances are you supposed to pass a danger light unless the signal man instructs you to (dodgy light or something).

You can correct me if I am wrong.

Just to be pedantic there is no such colour as amber in railway signalling - it's yellow.

 

[A-driver]

Why do yellow lights flash sometimes? See it Acton Bridge a few times.. as well as other places.

Where a diverging route is set at points and the speed needs to be reduced signalling automatically checks a train down so it's less likely the driver will miss the route indicator and speed on the points. Often the train is brought to a red which should clear when the train is a certain distance away so it dosnt have to actually stop. At some junctions to speed the approach up they install flashing yellows

 

[455driver]

Gradients are problematic for passenger trains? Freight I can understand but not passenger trains.

That isnt what I said is it! :roll:

What I did say was that there are a few locations where, if we reduce speed at the single yellow, because of the gradient the train wont reach the red, try reading what is actually posted!

They don't like us taking power towards a red so re-applying power is a no no but is necessary sometimes.

 

[Yabbadabba]

More and more are appearing as new signalling works are completed. Three stage repeaters will show On, white and green depending on what the associated signal shows

The technical term is "Green" Tri-State banner repeater, we've just had a load commissioned with the new bi-directional signalling between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Copyhold Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its a bit hard to see -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b95WGg-KKvI

43:19 minutes in 56113 passes Eastleigh. It uses the light on the floor to progress. It was the only train during that day that used that light. On all other freights and passengers an over head light was used.

That's a white light crossing, the lights tells you when it's safe or not to cross the line, to read in conjunction with the notice board that it's attached to. can be clearly seen on google maps.

 

[NI 271]

Anybody seen one of these.We have one along the routes I drive.Not sure if there are more on the SWT system.

There's 3 within a few miles between Stafford and Crewe on the WCML down slow (northbound), starting with signal SC5619 (I've temporarily forgotten the other two :roll. Foliage clearance means the second is now scarcely worth having, the signal itself is clearly visible. There's also, as najaB refers to, one at the south end of Wigan Northwestern platform 4.

Edit - there's also one shortly after Bushbury Junction heading toward Stafford, since the new signalling went live last week.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I get the impression that the green banner at Wigan is very considerably brighter/greener than the green banner at Ealing

 

[W230]

I believe the green banners are the new standard so appear anywhere a new repeater is put in.

Yip. Now on the BML and have been on the MML for a couple of years (south of Bedford at least).

 

[507 001]

Yip. Now on the BML and have been on the MML for a couple of years (south of Bedford at least).

Also one been installed fairly recently at Earlestown on the up Manchester so now spreading to secondary lines too.

 

[Llama]

Up Chat Moss that will be.

One at Roby too while we are in that neck of the woods.

 

[FordFocus]

Gradients are problematic for passenger trains? Freight I can understand but not passenger trains.

It can be at times, especially during leaf fall. A downward gradient combined with slippery railhead conditions can mean a substantially larger braking distance than normal even when you have accounted for braking earlier and lighter than normal. Route knowledge is key

 

[ComUtoR]

Three state banner :

Off + Green - Next signal is Green
Off + White - Next signal is cautionary (yellow/2 yellow)
On - Hit the brakes.

 

[najaB]

Three state banner :

Off + Green - Next signal is Green
Off + White - Next signal is cautionary (yellow/2 yellow)
On - Hit the brakes.

Hopefully you should already be on the brakes having passed a double/single yellow.

 

[notadriver]

Hopefully you should already be on the brakes having passed a double/single yellow.

Whether you are on the brakes depends on what speed you are doing and the gradient.

 

[najaB]

Whether you are on the brakes depends on what speed you are doing and the gradient.

Sorry, I was using 'on the brakes' figuratively to mean you would be prepared to stop. The post I was replying to seemed to imply that the 'On' banner came as a surprise.

 

[notadriver]

Believe it or not banner repeaters help trains run faster.

 

[najaB]

Believe it or not banner repeaters help trains run faster.

I don't have any problem believing that.

The way I'm figuring, when you pass a signal at caution you would be preparing to stop. Without a banner repeater you wouldn't know it had cleared until you could see it, so you can accelerate sooner. No doubt that there are situations where the opposite is true - you can come off the power at the cautionary signal and coast, if the banner is on then your braking point can be later.

 

[A-driver]

I don't have any problem believing that.



The way I'm figuring, when you pass a signal at caution you would be preparing to stop. Without a banner repeater you wouldn't know it had cleared until you could see it, so you can accelerate sooner. No doubt that there are situations where the opposite is true - you can come off the power at the cautionary signal and coast, if the banner is on then your braking point can be later.

I'm pretty sure the poster who said that was joking...

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm pretty sure the poster who said that was joking...

Driver humor I guess

On a side note. (just for najaB) You do not always need to be braking past single yellows and doubles still leave a fair bit of room before approaching the red.

There is always plenty of talk regarding route knowledge and this is a good example of when you need to make a driving decision based on your route knowledge. In the metro area signals tend to be close and you need to be a lot more cautious when running under restrictive aspects. Out in the countryside the gap between a single yellow and a red can be quite far (signal sections). Chuck in 3 aspect signalling and the section widens.

I still find myself at odds when driving north of the river as you can hurtle past a single yellow at 60+ with plenty of room for braking.

Banners (I hope someone can post the specifics of placement) do tend to be placed fairly close to the signal it is "repeating" so you should be braking going past it. Even saying that route knowledge will still determine your braking and speed etc. It is not uncommon for a Driver to see the banner and think "cra.. !"

Banners help the decision process and the new green ones make that decision easier.

I hope that gives a little bit more insight.

 

[richieb1971]

If I were a train driver there would often be occurrences where I would be mistaken that I would hit another train.

Here is a video to illustrate my meaning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDNVHfmlyHU

Under such circumstances do you trust the signalling whole heartedly? Do you brake and cack your pants? Do you jump out of the cab?

For most drivers I would assume taking drastic action would be done in the very last second when there is absolutely no question of an impact.

 

[A-driver]

If I were a train driver there would often be occurrences where I would be mistaken that I would hit another train.



Here is a video to illustrate my meaning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDNVHfmlyHU



Under such circumstances do you trust the signalling whole heartedly? Do you brake and cack your pants? Do you jump out of the cab?



For most drivers I would assume taking drastic action would be done in the very last second when there is absolutely no question of an impact.

You know which road you are heading for. Signals are fail safe and if you have a clear signal at a junction like the one you linked to you can be sure that the road ahead is clear.

 

[notadriver]

I'm pretty sure the poster who said that was joking...

Isn't the whole point of a tri state banner repeater to enable trains to flow more smoothly ?

 

[455driver]

If I were a train driver there would often be occurrences where I would be mistaken that I would hit another train.

Here is a video to illustrate my meaning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDNVHfmlyHU

Under such circumstances do you trust the signalling whole heartedly? Do you brake and cack your pants? Do you jump out of the cab?

For most drivers I would assume taking drastic action would be done in the very last second when there is absolutely no question of an impact.

There is no question of an impact anyway so the driver(s) would be driving normally, this is a perfect example of people not in the know assuming loads.

There are a couple of locations where trains are head on until they reach the junctions, Down Windsor fast and up Windsor beside International flyover is one and Up/Down Filton relief and down Filton is another.

 

[NI 271]

Driver humor I guess

On a side note. (just for najaB) You do not always need to be braking past single yellows and doubles still leave a fair bit of room before approaching the red.

I can think of one particular signal I know will be red every time I approach it (junction), I shut off power at 60mph around 2½ miles (and five signals) before it, and hit the magnet at around 10mph having not touched the brakes at all. Granted, this is freight, but it's a good example of how you can make the gradients work for you.

 

[GB]

Banners (I hope someone can post the specifics of placement) do tend to be placed fairly close to the signal it is "repeating" so you should be braking going past it.

If I remember correctly, a main aspect signal should have an uninterrupted sighting of at least 8 seconds at line speed. Any less then this due to either a curve or obstruction should warrant the use of a banner repeater.

 

[carriageline]

If I remember correctly, a main aspect signal should have an uninterrupted sighting of at least 8 seconds at line speed. Any less then this due to either a curve or obstruction should warrant the use of a banner repeater.

Think that's correct! Plus, I think green ones allow for a higher line speed, and are also used if something has been added to the railway, and affects the sighting distance. The green BR allows the signal to stay where it is. (This may all be tosh!)

 

[ComUtoR]

If I remember correctly, a main aspect signal should have an uninterrupted sighting of at least 8 seconds at line speed. Any less then this due to either a curve or obstruction should warrant the use of a banner repeater.

Yes for signal sighting. But the placement of the banner is what I'm unsure of. How far from the signal should the banner be placed ? Is there a specific yardage or timing for it ?

If I was going line speed past a banner that was on I would be throwing an anchor out the window, opening up the parachute and Flintstone style feet planted through the floor.

I know single yellows where I can still go past at a significant speed but not a single banner in the on position. That said; if running on a single yellow no doubt we are all preparing to stop using the plethora of techniques to reduce the speed of the train to stop correctly at the signal.

 

[A-driver]

Yes for signal sighting. But the placement of the banner is what I'm unsure of. How far from the signal should the banner be placed ? Is there a specific yardage or timing for it ?



If I was going line speed past a banner that was on I would be throwing an anchor out the window, opening up the parachute and Flintstone style feet planted through the floor.



I know single yellows where I can still go past at a significant speed but not a single banner in the on position. That said; if running on a single yellow no doubt we are all preparing to stop using the plethora of techniques to reduce the speed of the train to stop correctly at the signal.

You don't need any braking distance from a banner as they are not there to tell you you are approaching a red. They exist for the opposite-to tell you you are NOT approaching a red and speed you up.

If you pass a yellow you aim to stop at the next signal, always and with no exceptions. If that next signal is out of sight until you have passed the magnet for example then you may be running round that bend at 15mph over the magnet to get a 'clear' aws indication. If a banner is fitted on the straight before the blind curve you still approach as you would a red but when you gain sighting of the banner it may come off giving you indication the signal is off half a mile before reaching the magnet allowing you to speed up earlier. If it's a standard you need to bear in mind the signal may only be yellow but if it's a green you may even be able to take full power.

There are no reasons under normal running you should be approaching a banner repeater and be surprised that it is giving an 'on' indication. I'm sure many banners have prevented spads in the past by reminding a driver of a red they forgot about but that isn't really their primary function.

 

[redbutton]

If I were a train driver there would often be occurrences where I would be mistaken that I would hit another train.

Here is a video to illustrate my meaning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDNVHfmlyHU

Under such circumstances do you trust the signalling whole heartedly? Do you brake and cack your pants? Do you jump out of the cab?

For most drivers I would assume taking drastic action would be done in the very last second when there is absolutely no question of an impact.

There's a lot of this in the new London Bridge layout since all lines are reversible. You could be coming out facing another train coming in on the same line and then you both diverge in opposite directions at the last moment. Or there's a point (the country end of the 9 Reversible) where you're going at line speed toward buffer stops, but the only valid route is over the points to the 10 Reversible so it's all quite safe.

Ultimately, you have to trust that the system is interlocked so that the signallers physically (well, electronically nowadays) can't set conflicting routes. But for peace of mind you could also "read" which way the points are set from a fair distance before you arrive at them.