Question: What is the max speed in which a train can pass a station?

[The Quincunx]

At Slough on Saturday, there was an announcement for a passing IEC which definitely included keeping hold of pushchairs and buggies.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Something I can’t remember, did the introduction of container trains result in the simultaneous introduction of yellow lines (for excess turbulence), or did they happen retrospectively after analysis of safety incidents?

Can't comment on quite when and why yellow lines were introduced, but container trains as in Freightliner etc type of trains were running from the mid 1960s, long before yellow lines. apparently one of the good things to come out of the Beeching Report. Some containerised traffic had been carried for many years before that carried on e.g. conflat wagons.

With regard to container trains I am often conscious when they pass through a station platform at low speed e.g. Manchester Piccadilly 13 & 14, that there is potential for an idiot (or idiots) to attempt to leap into the more solid parts of any unoccupied space on a container flat.

 

[Acton1991]

It was quite a thrill to be stood in Slough with a HST coming through at 125mph!

 

[Bald Rick]

Are there any cab signalling systems either live somewhere in the world, or in development, that have some form of additional "smart" technology, which say allows full speed passed an empty platform where passengers have been barred access, but when accessible to passengers the cab signalling restricts the linespeed through the platform? Such a system would have to be linked to an electronic barrier/door that stops platform access, such as the continent-bound platform at Ebbsfleet International which only opens shortly before a Eurostar is due to arrive.

Not that I’m aware of, although it would be a relatively simple thing to do with ETCS, effectively using the TSR function. The difficult bit would be proving the platform is clear of passengers and secure, and the getting that message to the interlocking.

 

[mmh]

Wouldn't be an issue if all prams had a brake that is permanently on like airport trolleys. You have to press something to release them.

There speaks someone who has never pushed a pram, surely. Pushing a pram the weight of an airport trolley? I really do wonder at times.

 

[greyman42]

Is it the case that some freight trains can cause more turbulence than passenger trains, despite travelling slower, due to the design of the wagons?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it the case that some freight trains can cause more turbulence than passenger trains, despite travelling slower, due to the design of the wagons?

yes, very much so.

 

[ac6000cw]

Is it the case that some freight trains can cause more turbulence than passenger trains, despite travelling slower, due to the design of the wagons?

Yes - gaps between vehicles (instead of passenger gangway connections that fill up most of the space), more empty space between the bogies, loads like containers are decidedly un-aerodynamic and create a lot of air turbulance etc.

If you think our container trains are are bad for creating turbulence, you should experience the turbulence you get from a North American double-stack container train running at speed (they run up to 70 mph). Basically a procession of 20 feet tall blunt-ended 'vehicles' spaced apart due to the articulated well cars they are carried on.

If the one in the photo below (at Banff in Canada) was running through at speed (it wasn't), you would want to be much further away than the yellow line suggests...

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it the case that some freight trains can cause more turbulence than passenger trains, despite travelling slower, due to the design of the wagons?

As I noted in post #27 yesterday, the speed requiring yellow lines on platforms is only 60 mph for passing freights, vs 100 mph for passenger trains. Container trains with random gaps along them cause significant additional turbulence compared to a normal complete train of similar vehicles.

 

[colchesterken]

Would there be any issues about gauge clearance, does a train at high speed move from side to side enough for the step boards to come into contact with the platform edge

 

[td97]

Would there be any issues about gauge clearance, does a train at high speed move from side to side enough for the step boards to come into contact with the platform edge

Yes the clearance would in most cases reduce at higher speed. It should never reach a stage where the train collides with the platform edge though. If a higher linespeed was introduced it would have to be proven that existing route cleared vehicles would retain acceptable clearance values.

 

[AM9]

Yes - gaps between vehicles (instead of passenger gangway connections that fill up most of the space), more empty space between the bogies, loads like containers are decidedly un-aerodynamic and create a lot of air turbulance etc.

If you think our container trains are are bad for creating turbulence, you should experience the turbulence you get from a North American double-stack container train running at speed (they run up to 70 mph). Basically a procession of 20 feet tall blunt-ended 'vehicles' spaced apart due to the articulated well cars they are carried on.

If the one in the photo below (at Banff in Canada) was running through at speed (it wasn't), you would want to be much further away than the yellow line suggests...

Yup, I can verify that. In 2019, I was taking video from that platform, (under the main canopy) and a train of Procor tankers went past at about 60mph taking about 2 minutes to pass. The sheer size of them (slightly larger loading gauge than the UK) means that they tower over you and even the more aerodynamic cross section of the tanks creates quite a draught pulls anything near to the edge in a sort of spiral twist. Also, despite being just trailers some freight vehicles make quite a lot of mechanical noise at normal running speeds.

 

[notadriver]

Are there any cab signalling systems either live somewhere in the world, or in development, that have some form of additional "smart" technology, which say allows full speed passed an empty platform where passengers have been barred access, but when accessible to passengers the cab signalling restricts the linespeed through the platform? Such a system would have to be linked to an electronic barrier/door that stops platform access, such as the continent-bound platform at Ebbsfleet International which only opens shortly before a Eurostar is due to arrive.

The platforms at Ebbsfleet low level have much lower speeds as they are effectively loops off the main line. 130 kph is the limit with platform 4 used by Javelins having a lower 100 kph limit. The fast lines are some distance from the platforms.

Stratford international has only a set of tracks separating waiting passengers from the centre through roads - in both directions the line speed is 230 kph (225 for javelins)

 

[Jim the Jim]

Can't comment on quite when and why yellow lines were introduced, but container trains as in Freightliner etc type of trains were running from the mid 1960s, long before yellow lines. apparently one of the good things to come out of the Beeching Report. Some containerised traffic had been carried for many years before that carried on e.g. conflat wagons.

With regard to container trains I am often conscious when they pass through a station platform at low speed e.g. Manchester Piccadilly 13 & 14, that there is potential for an idiot (or idiots) to attempt to leap into the more solid parts of any unoccupied space on a container flat.

Freight trains regularly stop for some time in the platform at Nuneaton, it would be very easy to step aboard.

 

[Annetts key]

I'm sure that a couple of years after HST's were introduced on the Western Region, as well as the yellow sign telling folk to stand behind the yellow line, there was another sign which mentioned air turbulence and the danger of being swept off the platform. Younger PG used to stand right up to (but not over) the yellow line and feel the whoosh as a screaming Valenta rushed past - Happy days

These signs that say stand behind the yellow line and mention air turbulence are common on lots of stations including stations on mixed traffic 100MPH lines.

 

[tpjm]

There is no upper speed limit imposed as a blanket for all stations. As other posters have identified, there are a number of reasons that could cause a train to pass a platform at a lower speed than the theoretical maximum line speed, but these would typically be for adverse circumstances, i.e. gauge foul on the platform edge, or maintenance activity which results in the usual mitigations (detailed below) being temporarily withdrawn, hence the risk profile has to be reduced.

Railway Group Standard 7020 and Rail Industry Standard 7016 define the minimum widths and provision of edge markings, essentially breaking platforms down into three categories:

a <=100mph
Minimum width 2.5m, reducing to 2m over the last 20m if certain conditions are met

100mph < b <=125mph
Minimum width 3m
Yellow line at 1.5m from platform edge
Warning signs

125mph < c
People must be prevented from accessing the platform


As part of a station risk assessment, which considers the type of rolling stock passing through, it may be determined that a station where the line speed is sub-100mph needs to be treated with enhanced protections. This is typically due to freight posing a particular aerodynamic risk.

Many operators choose to manage their platforms through the provision of stencilled messages, yellow lines, red lines, hatched areas, etc, but an RSSB research project identified that this mishmash is proving difficult for customers to understand. "Best practice" is now being considered to rationalise these different approaches to a 'low aerodynamic risk' and 'high aerodynamic risk' option, noting that the 'low' option may also be delivered with a painted yellow line immediately behind the tactile paving and not all coping stones are 760mm deep.

 

[PG]

Many operators choose to manage their platforms through the provision of stencilled messages, yellow lines, red lines, hatched areas, etc, but an RSSB research project identified that this mishmash is proving difficult for customers to understand.

The TMI (Too Much Information) syndrome coupled with inconsistency between locations. Quite why it was decided upon that the TOCs should be responsible for the vast majority of stations is beyond me; let them stick to their primary purpose - running the trains!

 

[tpjm]

let them stick to their primary purpose - running the trains!

The problem is, it's never that simple.

I can give at least three examples that highlight why "TOCs doing whatever they want in isolation" isn't the problem:

1. Platform markings are usually driven by risk assessments conducted in response to rolling stock - example: a new type of rolling stock that happens to ride slightly higher/has a bigger step/etc, that makes the gap bigger = "mind the gap" stencil becomes a mitigation.
2. Network Rail stations all have all kinds of weird and wonderful platform edge markings - the 'red line' in my earlier post was in reference to Manchester Piccadilly.
3. Other parts of Network Rail and the wider industry are obsessed with putting things on platforms to mitigate a variety of issues - the latest one I heard was about anti-trespass, but I also know of several stations where the TRTS/RA switch is hatched off, as are the bottom of stairs....

The RSSB have a couple of really good research papers and if the entire industry committed to following the documented best practice, we would get consistency, as for now, I can only keep raising it on every new/refurbished station I work on.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I remember an episode on Mythbusters ages ago.

Here is the synopsis from Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2006_season)#Concrete_Glider

Myth statement	Status	Notes
The vortex from a passing train can suck a person onto the tracks.	Busted	Although small-scale testing with model trains in a wind tunnel showed a vortex, the more dominant force when running the full size train was the air turbulence running alongside and away from the train. The force caused Ted, a dummy made of ballistics gel, to simply fall down where he stood rather than be drawn into the train's wake, and also violently pushed around an empty stroller tethered onto the platform alongside. Despite the lack of suction, the MythBusters agreed that the turbulence was powerful enough in its own right to make standing that close to the train as it passes very dangerous.

I've found an online version of the episode to watch for free. They used an actual train for the experiments. Note: there will be ads before and during the video, like Youtube.

MythBusters - Se4 - Ep24 - Concrete Glider HD Watch - Dailymotion Video

MythBusters - Se4 - Ep24 - Concrete Glider

www.dailymotion.com

 

[PG]

The RSSB have a couple of really good research papers and if the entire industry committed to following the documented best practice, we would get consistency, as for know, I can only keep raising it on every new/refurbished station I work on.

Your underlined words are pertinent. About time each part of the industry acted to benefit the whole. Please keep on raising it - as the saying goes "from little acorns mighty oaks grow".

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage has always been a bit of a nasty one due to the way there often tends to be people congregating at the bottom of the stairwells. They could do with yellow hatching all over the platform in those areas.

I travelled from Stevenage with a friend recently who had never used the station before, although they are a regular rail user. They were amazed at how fast the trains appeared to pass through the station.

What doesn't help is the short length of the canopy at the bottom of the stairwell. These need extending to encourage people to move along the platform, it would also help if the platform coffee shop was moved further back but I doubt they'd be funds to do that.

 

[Annetts key]

The bigger problem IMHO is that it’s possible for the clothes worn by someone standing too near to be blown around and then get caught on something on the train. In the past, this may have been a door handle for example.

 

[PG]

The bigger problem IMHO is that it’s possible for the clothes worn by someone standing too near to be blown around and then get caught on something on the train. In the past, this may have been a door handle for example.

I'm aware of previous incidents of a 'trap and drag' nature being due to the persons clothing getting trapped in between sliding doors of stationary trains which then departed. However, although your concern seems very real and something to address, I'm wondering if any such incidents have occurred or have I missed them?

 

[Annetts key]

I'm aware of previous incidents of a 'trap and drag' nature being due to the persons clothing getting trapped in between sliding doors of stationary trains which then departed. However, although your concern seems very real and something to address, I'm wondering if any such incidents have occurred or have I missed them?

I don’t have an answer in regards to people on a platform, but on more than one occasion a member of track side staff has suffered injuries due to an item of clothing becoming caught on a passing train. Okay, the main problem being that they were not far enough away from the track when the train passed them.

 

[swaldman]

above 125mph the platform must be proved clear of passengers, or have physical barriers preventing access to the platform train interface (Ie a fence, which makes the platform effectively unusable). I’m not aware of any platforms of >125mph anywhere in the world that have platform edge doors.

Shinkansen has platform edge doors. Only about waist high, so I guess they might be called gates rather than doors?

I don't know for sure whether trains pass them at >125mph, but there are definitely stations that have only two tracks going through and have non-stopping trains, so unless they slow down a lot for the stations....

 

[PG]

I don’t have an answer in regards to people on a platform, but on more than one occasion a member of track side staff has suffered injuries due to an item of clothing becoming caught on a passing train. Okay, the main problem being that they were not far enough away from the track when the train passed them.

Thanks for explaining, I see where you're coming from now. Like you say staff ought to be in a place of safety when a train passes but its not a perfect world, so having less points on a train that can catch clothing would be desirable.

 

[JKF]

Is it the case that some freight trains can cause more turbulence than passenger trains, despite travelling slower, due to the design of the wagons?

These empty timber wagons going through Ovar station in Portugal at a moderate speed were fairly frightening, not all had the perforations on the end panels and being on a curve it was like the blades of a fan pushing the air, my family had to grip the pushchair tightly and retrieve sunhats and other objects once it had passed!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I noted in post #27 yesterday, the speed requiring yellow lines on platforms is only 60 mph for passing freights, vs 100 mph for passenger trains. Container trains with random gaps along them cause significant additional turbulence compared to a normal complete train of similar vehicles.

There are yellow lines on the platforms at Newport, despite the maximum line speed being (I think) 30mph.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are yellow lines on the platforms at Newport, despite the maximum line speed being (I think) 30mph.

And in some station’s terminal bays. What it must do is reduce the effectiveness of the message.

 

[Meerkat]

And in some station’s terminal bays. What it must do is reduce the effectiveness of the message.

I dont think its wise to give the impression that its safe to stand right on the edge if there isnt a yellow line - for the drivers' state of mind if nothing else.