Question to our learned drivers

[carriageline]

A 'simple' question from a signaller, to our driver colleagues, about your professional driving policies.

The scene:

Signal A1 is a junction signal
Signal A2 is the next signal, which is after the junction and protects a level crossing and platform, for which he is stopping
A3 is the platform starter.

A scenario for you, a driver is approaching A1, it is at red.

Now, as this junction signal is at red, the driver knows he will be following another train through the station, which isn't stopping.

I clear A1 to a single yellow, he knows he has the route to outside the station, but not into it or over the LX. Generally drivers as they cannot see it for some time they will absolutely crawl up to this red.

Now, as they crawl over the junction, by the time they get to A2 it's normally showing a YY or even a green, and lost a minute or two.

Now the question, I've now come to waiting 20 or so seconds for the express to get some distance, and then giving them a YY at A1.

Question 1) from the cab, does this make more sense as you can now proceed with more gusto?

Question 2) as your stopping before A3 (platform starter which is at danger), would you drive differently if A1 was a green, or YY?

Question 3) why do some of your colleagues feel the need to ring up and moan they saw it go Red -> YY, as if we forgot to pull off?

Thanks for staying on this long, it was a quiet night shift!

 

[SPADTrap]

I had almost this exact scenario last night, I tried to hold back in the hope of seeing the Y change as the R is around a corner and protects a platform and level crossing (on we often see YY Y at) so in that scenario it would have been nice to see it change to avoid having to crawl around the corner to find the R (as was) clear to YY or G.

Signaller wanted a chat anyhow so it didn't make a difference! :razz:

Be interested to hear from other more experienced drivers.

If the starter is at R for a platform I'm stopping at my companies policy is to hit the AWS ramps at max 20mph, so I'd be slower coming up to that red if A1 was showing YY as in your scenario, but at least you know you're into the platform.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Deleted

 

[ComUtoR]

Question 1) from the cab, does this make more sense as you can now proceed with more gusto?

Question 2) as your stopping before A3 (platform starter which is at danger), would you drive differently if A1 was a green, or YY?

Question 3) why do some of your colleagues feel the need to ring up and moan they saw it go Red -> YY, as if we forgot to pull off?

Thanks for staying on this long, it was a quiet night shift!

A1) I still wouldn't proceed with gusto because I will be aiming to do 20mph for stopping at the red. Add in eco driving and any adhesion issues then my approach to the red will determine most of my decision.

A2) Yep. As highlighted before my aim is pointing directly at the platform starter signal and for as long as I can see that red then I will approach at caution. If the red is beyond the station and I'm booked to stop there then I can pretty much full power into the station as I still have a safe stopping distance to the red. Green is my preference.

A3) Lack of understanding.

 

[Dave1987]

Some of the signal sightings are awful and don't have banner repeaters so you have to crawl around the corner to comply with company defensive driving policies. As far as the whole YY Y thing is concerned. If you know when you get a YY that the red is protecting a level crossing you know that it is likely that the signaller has been slow in lowering the barriers *BUT* you cannot plough along assuming that the signal will have cleared by the time you get there. Huge amounts of SPAD's have happened where a driver has assumed the red will clear as it always does only for it not to clear and SPAD it. If you go past the YY and it hasn't changed to a Green before you pass it then you have to start getting the speed down as as far as you are concerned there is a red light two signals away. If that costs you a couple of minutes then its not you fault and any please explain should be replied with "restrictive signals, safety above punctuality" end of.

 

[ComUtoR]

Now the question, I've now come to waiting 20 or so seconds for the express to get some distance, and then giving them a YY at A1.

To expand and add some additional points. If I know I am following a service in front then my expectations are that the signals step up. When I see a controlled plate it feels deliberate.

When following a service in front, like others have posted, my driving style is one of caution and I poodle along to reduce risk of incident. Why chase the red when I can happily sit on restrictive aspects instead.

Signalers don't do cab rides like they used to and box visits are little to non existent. From what my rules course told me (many moons ago...) the signalling is very different from what is laid out on rules. When I see signals held my rules brain is telling me that the section in front is occupied but then it pulls of Prelim Caution... I can see why Drivers get a little wound up. I think calling up and moaning is unprofessional but [edited]

I fully agree that signal sighting is also and issue and I have had conversations with the Sig about why I SG'd at a junction. He thought I could see the passing train. I had to let him know there was a big bush in the way and it was on a curve. I think that the lack of understanding between Driver/Signaler can certainly lead to some heated words every now and again.

 

[theironroad]

1. Never assume what is going on in front of you, even if 99% of the time you know what will happen.

2. Maybe if signal renewal planners actually bothered to listened to drivers who drive the routes every day, then stop signals wouldn't be hidden around corners, behind bridges and other places where it is guaranteed time will be lost be because drivers do not get given a magical crystal all after passing a single yellow.

3. For signals planners to hide behind some legal requirement that a signal has the minimum sighting distance time (8 seconds ???) and that a company or company council rep agrees, makes absolutely no difference if the actual driver cannot comply with a pro/ defensive driving policy and their cab ride/download shows they have not adhered to said policy.

Let's be honest here. What drivers think or suggest is irrelevant, as we just have to drive the route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to add, I will try never to get into an argument with a signaller and certainly won't call them up just because a a red in 4 aspect goes green for no reason, as I believe generally drivers and signallers are on the same side in what is becoming a point scoring game.

Tbh, I'm happy to sit at a red, as long as, might get through a bit more of the crossword......

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How many of these issues will be done away with on lines that get full ETCS?

Will the use of full ETCS likely throw up new issues?

 

[devinier]

1) Yes, personally, it makes sense.
2) My priority is not to have a spad at a3 and will control speed accordingly to stop at the signal, this may mean a slower approach to platform (leafall etc).
3) They shouldn't moan, but for some drivers moaning is an artform ! If a driver "asks" surely your explanation would suffice ?

 

[TDK]

A 'simple' question from a signaller, to our driver colleagues, about your professional driving policies.

The scene:

Signal A1 is a junction signal
Signal A2 is the next signal, which is after the junction and protects a level crossing and platform, for which he is stopping
A3 is the platform starter.

A scenario for you, a driver is approaching A1, it is at red.

Now, as this junction signal is at red, the driver knows he will be following another train through the station, which isn't stopping.

I clear A1 to a single yellow, he knows he has the route to outside the station, but not into it or over the LX. Generally drivers as they cannot see it for some time they will absolutely crawl up to this red.

Now, as they crawl over the junction, by the time they get to A2 it's normally showing a YY or even a green, and lost a minute or two.

Now the question, I've now come to waiting 20 or so seconds for the express to get some distance, and then giving them a YY at A1.

Question 1) from the cab, does this make more sense as you can now proceed with more gusto?

Question 2) as your stopping before A3 (platform starter which is at danger), would you drive differently if A1 was a green, or YY?

Question 3) why do some of your colleagues feel the need to ring up and moan they saw it go Red -> YY, as if we forgot to pull off?

Thanks for staying on this long, it was a quiet night shift!

Now, as this junction signal is at red, the driver knows he will be following another train through the station, which isn't stopping.

The driver will never assume they are following a stopper, flyer or anything else they will just obey the signals.

Question 1 At 1y/2y a driver will normally only select a maximum of notch 5 power in a 7 notch unit or notch 2 in a 4 notch unit, this is part of the PDP but will get up to a higher speed if it is 2Y vice 1Y.

Question 2 as question 1, it will all depend on how far away the station is, if it is far enough away then yes, a driver will go at a higher speed if the signal pulls of to a green as they can then use full power as per the PDP.

Question 3 Unfortunately many drivers only see what is in front of them and not the bigger picture, for instance, you pass a Semaphore distant at caution and then find all signals are off and don't see another distant at caution for the entire route however, this could be down to a T2 possession but the driver will assume the bobby is just late getting the signals off, I never call up the bobby but will report the loss of time to the company delay line.

 

[Minilad]

Never chase reds
Never assume whats in front of you
Drive to the conditions
Drive to whats in front of you
Train driving 101

 

[telstarbox]

Very interesting thread here and it's reassuring that the 'safety first' principle is not compromised.

 

[TDK]

Very interesting thread here and it's reassuring that the 'safety first' principle is not compromised.

Safety is the main priority and is the priority over anything else.

I drive the same if I am on time or late, I never try to make up time as this will eventually cause errors.

 

[bramling]

Safety is the main priority and is the priority over anything else.

I drive the same if I am on time or late, I never try to make up time as this will eventually cause errors.

I generally drive the same most of the time, if running on greens then I will go as fast as possible subject to the conditions. If on reds or yellows then tone down accordingly and will respond to the message conveyed by each signal as necessary, so what the signaller does wouldn't really have an effect.

If running late I will try and make up what I can, by motoring til the last minute instead of coasting, and trying to do smart station work where possible. But safety comes first.