Question regarding turning Class 68 engines off

[putabidin]

London has made some moves against buses etc sitting idling at bus termini with engines running all the time. I don't think comments to the adjacent residents of "well you live on a road so must expect vehicles" got very far. This is likely to extend very soon with a campaign against diesel road vehicle pollution, which has become a significant problem, especially as private cars have to an extent been squeezed out from central London by various measures and most road vehicles now, buses, trucks, taxis, millions of Uber chancers, etc, are invariably diesel. Railway diesels will get swept up in this.

I think saying the diesel must thrum away for 17 minutes before departure will be laughed at by all the politicians and activists - and by a significant number of engineering professionals as well. I bet there were those in the 1950s who said that inner London steam loco sheds needed to light up 50 steam locos on Sunday afternoon 12 hours before being needed, and got the same short shrift from the Smokeless Zone legislators as well.

Did you realise that trains are responsible for 8% of the NOx emissions in London? That is the same percentage as all the TFL buses and 4 times more than taxis.
One would hope that this would receive as much attention, but is currently being ignored.

 

[455driver]

Did you realise that trains are responsible for 8% of the NOx emissions in London? That is the same percentage as all the TFL buses and 4 times more than taxis.
One would hope that this would receive as much attention, but is currently being ignored.

Can you post a link to that please, I would be very interested in reading that.

 

[87015]

Did you realise that trains are responsible for 8% of the NOx emissions in London? That is the same percentage as all the TFL buses and 4 times more than taxis.
One would hope that this would receive as much attention, but is currently being ignored.

Part of the reason 68s are louder than the previous generation of diesels is because of the additional emissions reduction equipment to meet the later standards. This reduces the space available for a silencer. Idling is probably also cleaner overall than start up cycles. You can't have it all ways to suit I'm afraid.

 

[AndyW33]

Did you realise that trains are responsible for 8% of the NOx emissions in London? That is the same percentage as all the TFL buses and 4 times more than taxis.
One would hope that this would receive as much attention, but is currently being ignored.

But it isn't being ignored. The Great Western Electrification scheme and Crossrail will replace almost all the many diesel trains running out of Paddington with either straight electric trains or bi-mode trains (which will be running in electric mode in the London area). The GOBLIN electrification scheme will remove all local diesel trains from North East London and enable a higher percentage of freight trains to be electrically-hauled through London. New bi-mode trains are about to be delivered to take over most of the relatively limited number of diesel trains out of Kings Cross, and will run in electric mode in the London area.
All four of these projects have been under way for some time, and are publicly funded either in total or to a large extent. So running a campaign based on NOx emissions will run into the brick wall of TfL and the DfT saying "yes, we know, we've taken well publicised and very expensive steps to drastically reduce the emissions and in 2019 all these projects will be complete as far as the London area is concerned"
Why not start a campaign to get the lines out Marylebone electrified? That would remove both the remaining NOx emissions, and the diesel loco noise at a stroke.

 

[455driver]

Why not start a campaign to get the lines out Marylebone electrified? That would remove both the remaining NOx emissions, and the diesel loco noise at a stroke.

Not really, you are just moving the pollution production somewhere else.
t would just mean that those who live near power stations would have to put up with more emissions, the electricity for the trains has to be produced somewhere.

 

[JN114]

CyrusWoof

Many thanks for that comprehensive answer, and I think this is my last question.

You are absolutely right in your shutdown estimates but what is it that leads you to expect no shutdown for trains staying less than 25 minutes? What is against an instruction that all trains staying over 17 minutes have to be switched off, even if only for 5-6 minutes? I'm given to understand that it is never the same driver on the return journey.

Is it mechanical or operational? What harm would that do?

It sounds petty, I know, but that would actually reduce the "disturbance" time by 17%, or over 40 minutes during daylight hours and no one has told me why it shouldn't happen.

From the answers given by tstar - 17 minutes to prep cab (read: start and prepare loco); and 10 minutes to trip cab (shut down loco) - so the shutdown/startup cycle as a whole takes 27 minutes. Any turnarounds shorter than this won't be shutdown as there is the insufficient time to start up again.

 

[najaB]

Not really, you are just moving the pollution production somewhere else.

That depends on how the electricity is generated though. Nuclear, solar, wind, tidal or hydro release little or no pollution during operation.

 

[putabidin]

Can you post a link to that please, I would be very interested in reading that.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/def...n/Driving Away from Diesel final report_0.pdf


Page 10
Para 1.8
Chart 3

 

[putabidin]

Why not start a campaign to get the lines out Marylebone electrified? That would remove both the remaining NOx emissions, and the diesel loco noise at a stroke.

We shall, and it will be.
We need something short or medium term, too.

 

[putabidin]

From the answers given by tstar - 17 minutes to prep cab (read: start and prepare loco); and 10 minutes to trip cab (shut down loco) - so the shutdown/startup cycle as a whole takes 27 minutes. Any turnarounds shorter than this won't be shutdown as there is the insufficient time to start up again.

Those that do shut down do so in under 30secs. from the driver reaching the cab. Usually under 2 minutes. That is what happens every time there is a shut down. It's the restart time that is long. Any ideas how that can be shortened? For instance, could not any prep work which can be done without the engine running be done before starting up? Very occasionally I've seen trains leave within 7 minutes of the engine starting. Driver cutting corners? Or possible to achieve that time if they really honed the procedure?

 

[putabidin]

Those that do shut down do so in under 30secs. from the driver reaching the cab. Usually under 2 minutes. That is what happens every time there is a shut down.

For clarity. About 2 minutes for the driver to reach the cab, 30 seconds later the engine shuts down and the driver leaves a cab within another minute.

 

[najaB]

Very occasionally I've seen trains leave within 7 minutes of the engine starting. Driver cutting corners? Or possible to achieve that time if they really honed the procedure?

It just means that there have been steps that haven't been required on those particular occasions. Ten and seventeen minutes are the worst case timings.

 

[TheEdge]

Those that do shut down do so in under 30secs. from the driver reaching the cab. Usually under 2 minutes. That is what happens every time there is a shut down. It's the restart time that is long. Any ideas how that can be shortened? For instance, could not any prep work which can be done without the engine running be done before starting up? Very occasionally I've seen trains leave within 7 minutes of the engine starting. Driver cutting corners? Or possible to achieve that time if they really honed the procedure?

They wont be cutting corners. The times are set up to be comfortably achievable without rushing. In my job I am allowed 52 minutes to fully prepare a 9 coach hauled set. In reality I'll do it in under 40, not because I'm cutting corners but because I walk quickly and am slowly getting honed into doing it.

 

[JN114]

Those that do shut down do so in under 30secs. from the driver reaching the cab. Usually under 2 minutes. That is what happens every time there is a shut down. It's the restart time that is long. Any ideas how that can be shortened? For instance, could not any prep work which can be done without the engine running be done before starting up? Very occasionally I've seen trains leave within 7 minutes of the engine starting. Driver cutting corners? Or possible to achieve that time if they really honed the procedure?

Google maps tells me it should take 19 minutes to walk from my house to work. I follow the exact route it gives me; some days it takes 14, others it can take 25.

The same principle applies here.

Chiltern have to specify a time that they expect their crews to be able to work to. It has to be achievable by all their staff - whether it's their first day driving 68s or they've been doing it for years. They then write their timetable based around those timings. I'm sure on a good day it has been achieved in less time than they specify - you could then reduce the specified time, but what then happens on a bad day? 100s of passengers late getting home - all the compensation to pay out in delay repay; fines to Network Rail and the DfT for late running - all because driver Johnny - who walks a bit slower and takes his time to double check he's doing things right - takes the full 17 minutes he used to be allowed. He couldn't get to the train earlier as he just brought a different one in from Aylesbury. If that started happening every day they'd be riots on the concourse.

Just because some drivers can do it quicker than the allowance; doesn't mean Chiltern can or should specify it to take less time. The consequences in the big picture are too great.

At the rate train drivers are paid, It is in Chiltern's best interest to allow the minimum time achievable for these tasks; as ultimately any longer increases their wage bill. It's very apparent you're after a silver bullet solution to take to them. I'm going to tell you categorically there isn't one.

My tack, having spent a couple of years fighting BAA/HAL over Heathrow noise before moving to Wiltshire, would be to lobby Chiltern for some form of improved sound insulation or similar. Being realistic operational needs of the railway will always trump being a good neighbour.

 

[455driver]

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/def...n/Driving Away from Diesel final report_0.pdf


Page 10
Para 1.8
Chart 3

Thank you.

What I dont understand is-
Taxi only 2% but
Diesel car 11%
Petrol car 7%
How efficient are those taxis and what taxis are being recorded in which category?

Domestic gas 7%
Ground based aviation 8%
Nothing for aircraft unsurprisingly? :-?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

At Marylebone is there any access to a suitable shore supply at a suitable point along the platforms?

 

[putabidin]

At Marylebone is there any access to a suitable shore supply at a suitable point along the platforms?

There isn't. But I am told it wouldn't help as they have an auxilliary power unit
in the DVT which does the job.

 

[rebmcr]

From the answers given by tstar - 17 minutes to prep cab (read: start and prepare loco); and 10 minutes to trip cab (shut down loco) - so the shutdown/startup cycle as a whole takes 27 minutes. Any turnarounds shorter than this won't be shutdown as there is the insufficient time to start up again.

Thinking outside the box, would it be possible (from a purely physical viewpoint, ignoring any current rules) to stop the engine without tripping & preparing -- something vaguely analogous to what the 185s do automatically with their Eco Mode?

 

[t_star2001uk]

Thinking outside the box, would it be possible (from a purely physical viewpoint, ignoring any current rules) to stop the engine without tripping & preparing -- something vaguely analogous to what the 185s do automatically with their Eco Mode?

So to properly shut down a train set at Marylebone the procedure should be as follows.

Destroy the brake pipe.
DRA to ON
Remove master key
Lights to trailing
Apply parking brake
Ensure all internal cab lighting is off

Walk to 68 and enter cab no1
Enter clean air room
Place MODE SWITCH to SER
Re enter cab
Master key to on
Apply parking brake
ETS OFF
Engine OFF
Remove master key
Back into clean air room
MODE SWITCH to OFF
ETS ISO switch to OFF
Close all doors and exit cab
Walk back to DVT
Enter cab
Press GEN SET ETS on button
Once GEN SET has started exit cab.

 

[CosherB]

So to properly shut down a train set at Marylebone the procedure should be as follows.

Destroy the brake pipe.
DRA to ON
Remove master key
Lights to trailing
Apply parking brake
Ensure all internal cab lighting is off

Walk to 68 and enter cab no1
Enter clean air room
Place MODE SWITCH to SER
Re enter cab
Master key to on
Apply parking brake
ETS OFF
Engine OFF
Remove master key
Back into clean air room
MODE SWITCH to OFF
ETS ISO switch to OFF
Close all doors and exit cab
Walk back to DVT
Enter cab
Press GEN SET ETS on button
Once GEN SET has started exit cab.

Is that a one-off procedure?!

 

[t_star2001uk]

Is that a one-off procedure?!

Provided the train is not due to go back into service straight away...

 

[rebmcr]

So to properly shut down a train set at Marylebone the procedure should be as follows.

I very specifically asked what it COULD be, not what it SHOULD be.

 

[t_star2001uk]

I very specifically asked what it COULD be, not what it SHOULD be.

If im leaving a set for any length of time at Marylebone, that is how i would dispose of it. If the GenSet isn't going to be started then there are probably 2 steps that can be taken out of the list which in the grand scheme of things would not save any great deal of time..

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't answer for the Class 68s, but I have often heard the Class 218s of the German railways (DBAG) being started at Munich Hbf only a couple of minutes before the train departed. These are a much older design than the Class 68s.

(I used to live in Munich and have personal experience).

Germany is big into environmental friendliness, so this, with both locos and DMUs, is normal practice.

 

[Billy A]

Provided the train is not due to go back into service straight away...

er....I think the joke was:

Destroy the brake pipe.
That definitely sounds like a one off event!

 

[putabidin]

So to properly shut down a train set at Marylebone the procedure should be as follows.
........
Walk to 68 and enter cab no1
Enter clean air room
Place MODE SWITCH to SER
Re enter cab
Master key to on
Apply parking brake
ETS OFF
Engine OFF
.

Terrific information. So at that stage the engine is off and caused no nuisance. From experience that's usually about 2 minutes after arrival. More if someone stops the driver for a chat, I understand that.

What is the start up procedure, please? Sorry if means a lot of typing but I would love to know, and probably need to understand it.

 

[t_star2001uk]

What is the start up procedure, please? Sorry if means a lot of typing but I would love to know, and probably need to understand it.

Ok Here Goes. This procedure is for Marylebone..

Approach DVT checking tail lights are illuminated, Air pipes and coupling are correctly stowed.
Enter DVT cab
Check the following items
Master switch is off and key removed
Brake handle in FULL SERVICE
DRA is set.
If GEN SET is running press GEN SET/ ETS OFF button
(Slam door set: Check E70 Valve)
Exit cab
Walk to Number 1 end of 68
Enter cab
Check the following
DRA is set
Parking brake indicator is illuminated "Applied"
GSMR radio is illuminated
All 3 Emergency brake plungers are not pressed
Enter clean air compartment
In the LOW VOLT Cabinet
MODE SWITCH to SERvice
ETS MODE SWITCH to ON
Close all doors and return to Number 1 cab
Whilst the DDU is completing its boot cycle.
Insert master key, turn to on and cancel AWS/ TPWS.
After the computers have fully booted the ENGINE START button will illuminate.
Press ENGINE START and Press the ALARM button to acknowledge the PRE LUBE sequence start.
Once the PRE LUBE sequence has finished the engine will start

(This is the start of the the noisy bit)

Once the engine is running the compressor will start in the number 2 end
Wait for the ETS Ready button to illuminate, and press. (This will increase the engine RPM). After that follows the rest of the cab set up and systems checks

Thats the start sequence, now depending on how much air is in the Main Reservoir can determine how long the engine will sit at idle. The ETS needs to be running to enable the coach lighting and air conditioning and other services to function

 

[SpacePhoenix]

^ How long will that typically take (does the time it takes vary much depending on how long the engines have been shutdown for)?

 

[t_star2001uk]

^ How long will that typically take (does the time it takes vary much depending on how long the engines have been shutdown for)?

Once in the loco from turning the MODE SWITCH to SERvice it takes about 2 minutes for the computer to fully boot, then depending on how much air is in the MAIN RESERVOIR it could be anything from a couple of minutes to 10 minutes before the air system is fully charged..

 

[TimboM]

Once in the loco from turning the MODE SWITCH to SERvice it takes about 2 minutes for the computer to fully boot, then depending on how much air is in the MAIN RESERVOIR it could be anything from a couple of minutes to 10 minutes before the air system is fully charged..

And there was me thinking you driver folk just jumped in the cab and turned the ignition key on