Question re "InterCity" Branding

[KL55]

Was the "InterCity"/"Inter-City" branding on TOPS era coaches (mark 2As in particular) used during a specific time period and for specific routes? Would BR have operated mixed rakes of both branded and non branded coaches?

Many thanks

 

[Helvellyn]

It was used on all the Mark 2 coaches pretty much until the 1980s until they started getting cascaded to secondary routes, and then sector branding started to be applied (or at least the InterCity branding removed, albeit not in all cases).

Certainly examples of blue/grey Mark 2s with ScotRail or Network SouthEast branding added. Not sure if any got TransPennine branding too or if that was just the ones that got TransPennine livery.

 

[KL55]

Many thanks. With regard to mark 2A coaches without the branding, where and when would these have operated?

 

[randyrippley]

I don't think I ever saw any blue/grey mk2's of any type without the branding.
For instance Waterloo-Exeter carried it (as did the mk1 fleet before) while even the mk2's in the Weymouth boat train did.
Only disappeared with the painting into NSE as far as I can remember

 

[KL55]

Does anyone know whether "Inter City" (two words, no hyphen) was ever used as branding by BR?

 

[tbwbear]

Does anyone know whether "Inter City" (two words, no hyphen) was ever used as branding by BR?

The brand was always Inter-City until the hyphen was dropped from 1982. (Source: The InterCity Story 1964-2012, Chris Green and Mike Vincent, Oxford Publishing, 2013, p49)

Until then the hyphen was always present on advertising, marketing materials and the trains themselves.

Although the first TV advertising (Inter-City / Heart to Heart) began in 1966, it wasn't until later that the Mk2 coaches carried the words "Inter-City".

There are plenty of photographs of Mk2 and Mk2a coaches without Inter-City in the late 60s. The Mk2ds all had "Inter-City" from new, someone will be able to confirm whether that also applied to the Mk2b and Mk2c.

The sleepers were branded "Inter-City Sleepers" in 1969.

In any case, you could argue that until the 1980s Inter-City itself was more of a "sub-brand" (lacking definition) than a brand.

 

[D6130]

IIRC, the first batch of vacuum braked mark 2s (or air braked in the case of the Southern Region FKs) did not receive the Inter-City branding - with the exception of those converted to air braking and through control wiring for the Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull services. However, I'm pretty certain that the mark 2a/b/c/d/e/f vehicles received the branding from new.

 

[KL55]

That's very helpful, thank you. Can anyone comment on the likelihood of minor variations/errors in the application of branding/logos, e.g. missing hyphen on coaching stock, by paint shops? Just wondering whether "Inter City" (no hyphen) might have appeared in error.

 

[tbwbear]

IIRC, the first batch of vacuum braked mark 2s (or air braked in the case of the Southern Region FKs) did not receive the Inter-City branding - with the exception of those converted to air braking and through control wiring for the Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull services. However, I'm pretty certain that the mark 2a/b/c/d/e/f vehicles received the branding from new.

I have now done a bit of "research" by flicking through the pages of Modern Railways (all issues between January 1968 and December 1975) and looking at the photographs and noting the dates they were taken - not an entirely unpleasant exercise

The results surprised me.

I may have missed something, but the first photograph I can see of "Inter-City" on any coach side is the shot of the very first Mk2d in 1971. Thereafter every shot of the air-conditioned versions (d,e & f) clearly has the Inter-City "hyphen" branding. No errors, sorry.

The first picture of a non-airconditioned Mk2 with "Inter-City" I can see is in the March 1974 edition and it is (photo undated) of the Scottish push pull service.

In a later edition I found a picture of a "branded" Mk2c at Shap behind a Class 50 on 23rd July 1973.

Photographs dated 1974 and later then include several shots of Mk2a (some already cascaded onto the ECML Grimsby service by then) Mk2b and Mk2c (on the WR and LMR) all with the branding.

All the photographs taken before 1973 that are featured show non-airconditioned Mk2 without the branding. There is a wide variety of shots: Electrically hauled on the WCML, Deltics on the ECML, Westerns on the WR etc... Mk2, Mk2a, Mk2b and Mk2c all clearly without the branding in the late 60s and early 70s.

This is obviously unscientific research based on a limited number of photographs, but I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that it was only the Mk2d (possibly some later Mk2c but not all) that had the branding from new in 1971 and the rest were done afterwards. They were not done quickly either and there are some photographs from 1973-4 that show mixed rakes of branded-unbranded coaches.

That is my assumption - but I am happy to be corrected...

BELOW - Part of an undated photo taken by D A Flitcroft in the Dec 74 edition of Modern Railways, (fair use claimed) shows #1 and #4 & #5 vehicles unbranded, with #2 and #3 clearly branded. Train is approaching Preston hauled by a Class 87, so must date from after 23rd July 1973.

 

[D6130]

I have now done a bit of "research" by flicking through the pages of Modern Railways (all issues between January 1968 and December 1975) and looking at the photographs and noting the dates they were taken - not an entirely unpleasant exercise

The results surprised me.

I may have missed something, but the first photograph I can see of "Inter-City" on any coach side is the shot of the very first Mk2d in 1971. Thereafter every shot of the air-conditioned versions (d,e & f) clearly has the Inter-City "hyphen" branding. No errors, sorry.

The first picture of a non-airconditioned Mk2 with "Inter-City" I can see is in the March 1974 edition and it is (photo undated) of the Scottish push pull service.

In a later edition I found a picture of a "branded" Mk2c at Shap behind a Class 50 on 23rd July 1973.

Photographs dated 1974 and later then include several shots of Mk2a (some already cascaded onto the ECML Grimsby service by then) Mk2b and Mk2c (on the WR and LMR) all with the branding.

All the photographs taken before 1973 that are featured show non-airconditioned Mk2 without the branding. There is a wide variety of shots: Electrically hauled on the WCML, Deltics on the ECML, Westerns on the WR etc... Mk2, Mk2a, Mk2b and Mk2c all clearly without the branding in the late 60s and early 70s.

This is obviously unscientific research based on a limited number of photographs, but I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that it was only the Mk2d (possibly some later Mk2c but not all) that had the branding from new in 1971 and the rest were done afterwards. They were not done quickly either and there are some photographs from 1973-4 that show mixed rakes of branded-unbranded coaches.

That is my assumption - but I am happy to be corrected...

BELOW - Part of an undated photo taken by D A Flitcroft in the Dec 74 edition of Modern Railways, (fair use claimed) shows #1 and #4 & #5 vehicles unbranded, with #2 and #3 clearly branded. Train is approaching Preston hauled by a Class 87, so must date from after 23rd July 1973.


View attachment 107535

Fair enough. The camera doesn't lie....or didn't in those days anyway! My memory obviously isn't what it used to be these days!

 

[KL55]

Many thanks for your efforts. Merry Christmas.

 

[32475]

According to David Lawrence’s wonderful book ‘British Rail Designed 1948-97’ …..’By 1985 the sector name Inter-City had been modernised by the simple but inspired removal of a hyphen: InterCity. This was synchronised with a typographic trend of the time to put brand names together with intermediate capital letters: NetworkSouthEast would be another example’.

 

[Joe Paxton]

According to David Lawrence’s wonderful book ‘British Rail Designed 1948-97’ …..’By 1985 the sector name Inter-City had been modernised by the simple but inspired removal of a hyphen: InterCity. This was synchronised with a typographic trend of the time to put brand names together with intermediate capital letters: NetworkSouthEast would be another example’.

Network SouthEast always had a space between the 'Network' and the 'SouthEast'.

 

[32475]

Network SouthEast always had a space between the 'Network' and the 'SouthEast'.

You are quite correct. I was misquoting!