Question about NR-Elizabeth Line change

[splashbacks]

Hi everyone, apologies if this is a basic question:

With a Chelmsford to "London Terminals" ticket, am I allowed to stop at Stratford and switch to the Elizabeth line to travel to Whitechapel, or is that against the rules? Additionally, does this apply to other intermediate stops — for example, could I stop at Shenfield and take the Elizabeth line to Ilford?

I attempted this recently after a Greater Anglia staff member told me it would be allowed without a separate TfL ticket, as I take this trip often and was using my Oyster. However, when I reached the Whitechapel gateline, I was informed that this route was not permitted. They let me through but advised me not to use this route again. What is true?

 

[Watershed]

Hello and welcome to the forum. You have come to the right place for a question like this.

I take it you're talking about a season ticket, or an Anytime/Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak ticket? The default rule is that National Rail tickets are valid on all National Rail operators' services, along all valid/"permitted" routes, unless a restriction to the contrary is shown on the ticket - condition 13.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) refers. The aforementioned Chelmsford to London Terminals fares are routed "Any Permitted", so they have no such restrictions and can be used on any NR operator.

Though it is controlled by TfL and branded as a quasi-Tube line, the Elizabeth line is also one of the 23 NR operators. It is listed as such in Appendix A on page 30 of the NRCoT, which precludes the usual argument to the contrary by TfL staff. So the NRCoT applies to your travel on the Elizabeth line*.

When travelling on a flexible/walk-up National Rail ticket such as the above, you can change trains at any intermediate station along a permitted route, and also start, finish or break your journey intermediately. So you're entirely valid to change to Elizabeth line services en-route, and you can also exit and subsequently re-enter at Shenfield/Ilford if you want. These stations are obviously along the route to London Liverpool Street. These rights are set out in condition 16.2 of the NRCoT.

In respect of Whitechapel, TfL likes to pretend that the Elizabeth line magically transforms into an Underground line west of Stratford, and thus that the Underground ticketing rules apply (which generally don't allow break of journey). But there is no basis for this policy; it is essentially just something they have made up because it suits their general operating/ticket model. As mentioned above, the Elizabeth line is part of the NR network and so all the same NRCoT provisions apply as when you are travelling on Greater Anglia, for example.

Unfortunately, you certainly aren't the first person to have problems using NR tickets at gatelines managed by TfL staff. I myself was given grief for using a valid NR ticket to exit at Whitechapel and was similarly told I "shouldn't do it again", though I was allowed to re-enter a few minutes later. TfL have a notable problem with rogue gateline staff who make up rules, and of course even diligent staff are let down by the training TfL gives, which is incorrect in some respects (as mentioned above). Every time I've complained I've been given apologies and platitudes, but I don't think TfL corporately understands the issue, let alone has any intention of addressing it.

So in essence, the GA staff were correct, but you are likely to encounter problems whenever you try to exercise your contractual rights at Whitechapel. It's up to you how to proceed; if it cost about the same, I'd probably just use PAYG Oyster/contactless for the relevant journeys to avoid the hassle, but if that cost materially more, I'd be looking to complain every time you have problems and escalate it as far as possible, until hopefully something gets done.

*The position is slightly different when you are using PAYG Oyster or contactless, but for season/single/return National Rail tickets it is as stated above.

 

[splashbacks]

Hello and welcome to the forum. You have come to the right place for a question like this.

I take it you're talking about a season ticket, or an Anytime/Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak ticket? The default rule is that National Rail tickets are valid on all National Rail operators' services, along all valid/"permitted" routes, unless a restriction to the contrary is shown on the ticket - condition 13.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) refers. The aforementioned Chelmsford to London Terminals fares are routed "Any Permitted", so they have no such restrictions and can be used on any NR operator.

Though it is controlled by TfL and branded as a quasi-Tube line, the Elizabeth line is also one of the 23 NR operators. It is listed as such in Appendix A on page 30 of the NRCoT, which precludes the usual argument to the contrary by TfL staff. So the NRCoT applies to your travel on the Elizabeth line*.

When travelling on a flexible/walk-up National Rail ticket such as the above, you can change trains at any intermediate station along a permitted route, and also start, finish or break your journey intermediately. So you're entirely valid to change to Elizabeth line services en-route, and you can also exit and subsequently re-enter at Shenfield/Ilford if you want. These stations are obviously along the route to London Liverpool Street. These rights are set out in condition 16.2 of the NRCoT.

In respect of Whitechapel, TfL likes to pretend that the Elizabeth line magically transforms into an Underground line west of Stratford, and thus that the Underground ticketing rules apply (which generally don't allow break of journey). But there is no basis for this policy; it is essentially just something they have made up because it suits their general operating/ticket model. As mentioned above, the Elizabeth line is part of the NR network and so all the same NRCoT provisions apply as when you are travelling on Greater Anglia, for example.

Unfortunately, you certainly aren't the first person to have problems using NR tickets at gatelines managed by TfL staff. I myself was given grief for using a valid NR ticket to exit at Whitechapel and was similarly told I "shouldn't do it again", though I was allowed to re-enter a few minutes later. TfL have a notable problem with rogue gateline staff who make up rules, and of course even diligent staff are let down by the training TfL gives, which is incorrect in some respects (as mentioned above). Every time I've complained I've been given apologies and platitudes, but I don't think TfL corporately understands the issue, let alone has any intention of addressing it.

So in essence, the GA staff were correct, but you are likely to encounter problems whenever you try to exercise your contractual rights at Whitechapel. It's up to you how to proceed; if it cost about the same, I'd probably just use PAYG Oyster/contactless for the relevant journeys to avoid the hassle, but if that cost materially more, I'd be looking to complain every time you have problems and escalate it as far as possible, until hopefully something gets done.

*The position is slightly different when you are using PAYG Oyster or contactless, but for season/single/return National Rail tickets it is as stated above.

Thank you! -- I was indeed using an Anytime ticket.

They specifically told me Whitechapel doesn't constitute as a "terminal station" like Stratford and Liverpool St does, which made sense for me personally, but apparently not!

I don't think I'll try it again though as it was very embarrassing about to be fined by a power-tripped Revenue officer.

 

[redreni]

Thank you! -- I was indeed using an Anytime ticket.

They specifically told me Whitechapel doesn't constitute as a "terminal station" like Stratford and Liverpool St does, which made sense for me personally, but apparently not!

I don't think I'll try it again though as it was very embarrassing about to be fined by a power-tripped Revenue officer.

It might make sense, but it's rubbish. Stratford isn't a London Terminal either. This is irrelevant since your ticket is valid to break your journey or finish short at stations along a valid route to a London Terminal. The basis for finishing your journey at Stratford is the same as the basis for finishing your journey at Whitechapel. The only obstacle is TfL.

 

[miklcct]

According to TRU 112, some London terminals tickets are configured to be accepted at Whitechapel for break of journey purpose, so you shouldn't encounter trouble there.

Some NR London terminals tickets will now be accepted by gates at Whitechapel, based on an Elizabeth line journey to Liverpool Street broken short of its final destination. So for example currently an Ipswich to London terminals ticket would allow to break a journey at Whitechapel, even though it's not valid at the station or on services passing through it

 

[alistairlees]

Hi everyone, apologies if this is a basic question:

With a Chelmsford to "London Terminals" ticket, am I allowed to stop at Stratford and switch to the Elizabeth line to travel to Whitechapel, or is that against the rules? Additionally, does this apply to other intermediate stops — for example, could I stop at Shenfield and take the Elizabeth line to Ilford?

I attempted this recently after a Greater Anglia staff member told me it would be allowed without a separate TfL ticket, as I take this trip often and was using my Oyster. However, when I reached the Whitechapel gateline, I was informed that this route was not permitted. They let me through but advised me not to use this route again. What is true?

The rule since the opening of the Elizabeth line has been that a ticket to or from a Zonal destination (1, 2, 3 or 4 as appropriate) is required for a journey that is to any station between Paddington and Stratford / Abbey Wood (not including those three stations themselves). However, it was recognised that this would create some anomalies (as you have discovered) for people travelling from east of Stratford to Liverpool Street, as both Greater Anglia and Elizabeth line services go there.

Consequently there is an easement to accept tickets from east of Stratford to London Terminals at both Liverpool Street stations: the mainline station served by Greater Anglia and the Elizabeth line station served solely by Elizabeth line services. This did not extend to validity at Whitechapel, which would still require a ticket to Zone 1 (though I note that this may have changed from the post above).

In summary: yes, you can use your Chelmsford to London Terminals ticket at either Liverpool Street station, but not at Whitechapel (unless that has changed). You could also use it to go to Ilford, by changing at Shenfield (and you could either end your journey in Ilford or continue after a break).

This is a summary for a normal ticket, such as a season ticket or Anytime ticket, on paper or barcode. Oyster / contactless is all a bit different.

 

[Watershed]

The rule since the opening of the Elizabeth line has been that a ticket to or from a Zonal destination (1, 2, 3 or 4 as appropriate) is required for a journey that is to any station between Paddington and Stratford / Abbey Wood (not including those three stations themselves). However, it was recognised that this would create some anomalies (as you have discovered) for people travelling from east of Stratford to Liverpool Street, as both Greater Anglia and Elizabeth line services go there.

Consequently there is an easement to accept tickets from east of Stratford to London Terminals at both Liverpool Street stations: the mainline station served by Greater Anglia and the Elizabeth line station served solely by Elizabeth line services. This did not extend to validity at Whitechapel, which would still require a ticket to Zone 1 (though I note that this may have changed from the post above).

In summary: yes, you can use your Chelmsford to London Terminals ticket at either Liverpool Street station, but not at Whitechapel (unless that has changed). You could also use it to go to Ilford, by changing at Shenfield (and you could either end your journey in Ilford or continue after a break).

This is a summary for a normal ticket, such as a season ticket or Anytime ticket, on paper or barcode. Oyster / contactless is all a bit different.

It is fair to say that this reflects TfL's intended fares policy which retailers have been forced to implement, and which is mirrored in the experience people are likely to have in practice.

The legal position is of course different, as there is nothing in the NRCoT or (public facing) Routeing Guide that treats the Elizabeth line 'core' differently.

 

[sheff1]

According to TRU 112, some London terminals tickets are configured to be accepted at Whitechapel for break of journey purpose, so you shouldn't encounter trouble there.

See that still claims an Ipswich to London terminals ticket is not valid at, or to pass through, Whitechapel when it clearly is.

Don’t understand why such a simple thing is so difficult for them to understand.

 

[pelli]

According to TRU 112, some London terminals tickets are configured to be accepted at Whitechapel for break of journey purpose, so you shouldn't encounter trouble there.

Some NR London terminals tickets will now be accepted by gates at Whitechapel, based on an Elizabeth line journey to Liverpool Street broken short of its final destination. So for example currently an Ipswich to London terminals ticket would allow to break a journey at Whitechapel, even though it's not valid at the station or on services passing through it

See that still claims an Ipswich to London terminals ticket is not valid at, or to pass through, Whitechapel when it clearly is.

Don’t understand why such a simple thing is so difficult for them to understand.

Looking at TRU112, it's a document predating the opening of the Elizabeth Line, and it discusses changes implemented for the Elizabeth Line which turned out to be premature due to a sudden announcement of delay to the opening of the Elizabeth Line ("until autumn 2019" ). Hence, the statement was correct at the time that the ticket was not valid at Whitechapel (as the Elizabeth Line had not yet opened), and further implies that the ticket was intended to be valid once the Elizabeth Line has opened.

Issue No 112
September October 2018
[...]
Not long after publication of TRU111 and only days before the implementation date of the September Fares Revision, it was announced that the scheduled opening of the central section of the Elizabeth line would be delayed until autumn 2019. Unfortunately this announcement came too late to stop the implementation of a number of the changes which had been incorporated into the fares revision, in readiness for the planned opening in December 2018.
[...]
As previously mentioned in our lead article on Page 1, the other aspect of the fares revision which didn't go exactly to plan was due to the late announcement of a delay to the opening of the Elizabeth line. This unfortunately occurred too late to prevent changes taking place on 02 September and as explained elsewhere, makes it impractical to revert and then reinstate fares and settings at a later fares revision, in time for the revised opening date.

 

[alistairlees]

Looking at TRU112, it's a document predating the opening of the Elizabeth Line, and it discusses changes implemented for the Elizabeth Line which turned out to be premature due to a sudden announcement of delay to the opening of the Elizabeth Line ("until autumn 2019" ). Hence, the statement was correct at the time that the ticket was not valid at Whitechapel (as the Elizabeth Line had not yet opened), and further implies that the ticket was intended to be valid once the Elizabeth Line has opened.

That's a good spot. TRU112 can be ignored on this matter as it was superseded by other documents.

 

[sheff1]

Looking at TRU112, it's a document predating the opening of the Elizabeth Line.

Fair enough. I assumed that, as it was referenced in relation to the current discussion, it had been published recently.

 

[miklcct]

That's a good spot. TRU112 can be ignored on this matter as it was superseded by other documents.

But the validity mentioned in TRU 112 specifically applied for the use after the Elizabeth line was opened, as the gate was coded to accept tickets which are valid for break of journey on the Elizabeth line, even at that time the ticket wasn't actually valid because the Elizabeth line wasn't opened yet.

If I encounter any troubles using such tickets (specifically, a ticket to London Terminals from the Greater Anglia network) at Whitechapel, I'll send another FOI again in quoting the paragraph in TRU 112 as that's an acknowledgement that such break of journey is valid.

 

[slicedbread]

In respect of Whitechapel, TfL likes to pretend that the Elizabeth line magically transforms into an Underground line west of Stratford, and thus that the Underground ticketing rules apply (which generally don't allow break of journey). But there is no basis for this policy; it is essentially just something they have made up because it suits their general operating/ticket model. As mentioned above, the Elizabeth line is part of the NR network and so all the same NRCoT provisions apply as when you are travelling on Greater Anglia, for example.

Looking at TFL's own conditions conditions of carriage

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/tfl-conditions-of-carriage.pdf

in appendix 1 for ticket types:

Tickets, which show the destination
station name, valid for a single or
return journey on London
Overground/ Elizabeth line and other
National Rail services, including via
London Underground and DLR

It has "additional information" which says

The Underground/DLR/Elizabeth line
(Paddington-Abbey Wood) portion of the
journey must not be broken at
intermediate stations except to change
line

It also says

In addition to any special conditions mentioned, all tickets issued for travel on London Overground
and Elizabeth line are subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel

Your excellent post up thread has already covered that there is nothing in NRCoT about this condition on the Lizzie line

 

[redreni]

Looking at TFL's own conditions conditions of carriage

Yes and they do seem to have updated the "printed tickets" section so it purports to proscribe break of journey on the Elizabeth Line between Paddington and Abbey Wood. While it is interesting to see this in TfL's conditions of carriage, we already knew TfL's position on this.

I don't think this changes my view, which is that the tickets in question are issued pursuant to the National Rail Conditions of Travel which are not silent on the break of journey point. It's clear from those break of journey is allowed unless the ticket restrictions say otherwise, except on London Underground and DLR. There's no provision for operators to impose blanket break of journey restrictions on sections of line.

 

[crablab]

It's clear from those break of journey is allowed unless the ticket restrictions say otherwise, except on London Underground and DLR. There's no provision for operators to impose blanket break of journey restrictions on sections of line.

Indeed.
The NRCoT is clear that TOCs cannot impose additional restrictions to water down conditions within it.
MTREL is just another TOC, however TfL brand it, and must abide by the industry terms and conditions under which their (paper) tickets are issued.

 

[crablab]

Thanks to the person at Bond Street who did engage in a sensible discussion about BoJ today and let me through eventually. But it's really frustrating having this discussion with staff members who have been misinformed by TfL on where break of journey applies.

The classic "well the gateline rejects it so..." was mentioned, as was the issue of a passenger potentially using the Underground to continue their journey instead of the National Rail service. However, neither practicality are the concern of a customer.

To be clear, if a ToC is listed in Appendix A of the NRCoT and there's no adverse restriction on the ticket itself, BoJ is unambiguously valid.

 

[talldave]

What's depressing is that I suspect most passengers attempting such a BoJ and encountering the TfL lies will accept them and never try again. It takes a thick skin to argue sufficiently to achieve "just this once" status every time.

 

[PeterC]

What's depressing is that I suspect most passengers attempting such a BoJ and encountering the TfL lies will accept them and never try again. It takes a thick skin to argue sufficiently to achieve "just this once" status every time.

Most passengers are just travelling from A to B and won't even be aware that BoJ is possible.

If we all make enough fuss then I am sure that the NRCoT will be brought into line with the TfL view of the world.