Question about empty running on the MET line.

[Class325Guy]

Hello, so I am trying to make a scenario for the MET line in my train sim that simulates something similar to a rusty rail move, where I take the train and drive it empty to a specific set of sidings, and then turn the train around and head back the other way. I know from the Dale Charman videos that on the Piccadilly line there are certain rules when running empty, like having speed limits for how fast you can pass the starting signal at stations, with certain stations having higher limits. Is there a set of rules like this for the MET line, and is there anywhere I might be able to read more details about the specific rules for when running empty?

Thanks

 

[penfold22]

Hello, so I am trying to make a scenario for the MET line in my train sim that simulates something similar to a rusty rail move, where I take the train and drive it empty to a specific set of sidings, and then turn the train around and head back the other way. I know from the Dale Charman videos that on the Piccadilly line there are certain rules when running empty, like having speed limits for how fast you can pass the starting signal at stations, with certain stations having higher limits. Is there a set of rules like this for the MET line, and is there anywhere I might be able to read more details about the specific rules for when running empty?

Thanks

Hello. The restriction of passing a station starting signal in most areas of LUL is as a result of a very reduced signalling overlap beyond the station starter. However, on the Met Line, north of Harrow we have full-speed / extended overlaps, removing the requirement for passing the starter at 5mph.
These overlaps are provided at all signals on the local and main lines towards Amersham and Watford, but do not exist on the Uxbridge branch. I would not be able to provide a link to any specific rules (we have them but they are mostly internal documents) but as far as running empty, the full speed overlap signals can be passed at line speed (provided they are clear of course) and everywhere else the station starter should be passed at 5mph.

 

[Class325Guy]

Hello. The restriction of passing a station starting signal in most areas of LUL is as a result of a very reduced signalling overlap beyond the station starter. However, on the Met Line, north of Harrow we have full-speed / extended overlaps, removing the requirement for passing the starter at 5mph.
These overlaps are provided at all signals on the local and main lines towards Amersham and Watford, but do not exist on the Uxbridge branch. I would not be able to provide a link to any specific rules (we have them but they are mostly internal documents) but as far as running empty, the full speed overlap signals can be passed at line speed (provided they are clear of course) and everywhere else the station starter should be passed at 5mph.

Thanks for the info. So basically, it would be 5mph between Uxbridge and West Harrow, and then it can be at line speed from there on it would be line speed. Is that correct?

 

[bramling]

Thanks for the info. So basically, it would be 5mph between Uxbridge and West Harrow, and then it can be at line speed from there on it would be line speed. Is that correct?

Most of the starting signals on the Uxbridge branch have timing sections on them, so will effectively force a train to slow down. I think the exceptions are Rayners Lane and West Harrow. The existence of the timing sections is more to do with that this had become the standard at the time this section was resignalled than any other reason.

Note that it isn’t so much to do with the short overlaps on the starters, but more to do with the fact that overlaps tend to be calculated on the basis of assuming trains will start from a station. So if a train runs through a station at full speed, it could reach the next signal at a much higher speed than if starting from a standing start, which in turn could compromise the overlap. The timing section on starting sections mitigates against this.

It’s for the same reason that pretty much all starting signals on the Bakerloo have timing sections, the vintage of the resignalling simply means this had become a standard by then, whereas older schemes placed more reliance on the driver.

 

[bluegoblin7]

No - the Met line is significantly more complex than other lines and there are different rules depending on exactly where you are. It's worth noting that these rules are not specific to empty running - trains running 'fast via the local' or otherwise non-stopping a station in passenger service can also make use of these overlaps.

There are some additional anomalies (mainly due to things like tripcock testers), but broadly speaking speed limits are as follows:

• Moor Park to Amersham via Main Lines excl. Rickmansworth - 60mph
• Rickmansworth - 25mph (PSR)
• Harrow (excl.) to Moor Park (excl.) via Local Lines - 50mph (Moor Park/Harrow 15mph)
• West Harrow/Rayners Lane - 30/20mph
• Wembley Park (excl.) to Harrow via Local Lines - 25mph
• Wembley Park (incl.) to Harrow via Fast Lines - 50mph

Hello. The restriction of passing a station starting signal in most areas of LUL is as a result of a very reduced signalling overlap beyond the station starter. However, on the Met Line, north of Harrow we have full-speed / extended overlaps, removing the requirement for passing the starter at 5mph.
These overlaps are provided at all signals on the local and main lines towards Amersham and Watford, but do not exist on the Uxbridge branch. I would not be able to provide a link to any specific rules (we have them but they are mostly internal documents) but as far as running empty, the full speed overlap signals can be passed at line speed (provided they are clear of course) and everywhere else the station starter should be passed at 5mph.

Whilst I think the point has come across, some of the terminology and explanations given here are incorrect, although I appreciate that this seems to be coming from a T/Op perspective whereas my own view is from the (LUL) signalling side. I won't get into too much signalling detail and will focus primarily on the Met, but it shouldn't go uncorrected;

• As a general rule, all London Underground signals have 'full speed' overlaps. These aren't 'extended' (something entirely different) - it's the basic principle of London Underground signalling design. If a train has a SPAD on a signal at line speed, it will stop before it can conflict with a train standing at a signal ahead. This is possible largely due to having specific stock with similar characteristics on each line, all of similar lengths. A fair amount of the signalling work being carried out on the Piccadilly line is to ensure that these principles hold true for the new stock, for instance.
• There are always exceptions (like everything on the railway!) - a lot of the worst examples of 'compromised' overlaps have now been abolished, but where multi-home and/or draw-up signalling exists this principle doesn't always hold true. The biggest exception by far is for station starting signals, which - again, generally - do have reduced overlaps.
• Reduced signalling overlaps on station starters are standard practice on LUL and account for trains slowing, carrying out station duties and accelerating again. Enforcing a reduced speed when travelling non-stop protects the integrity of the signalling, and also proves useful for things like tripcock testers which have their own restrictions. If a train was to SPAD a station starter in a 'winding up' incident (starting away from the platform on a red), or to have a SPAD at the reduced speed, it would stop within the protected area and not come into contact with a train ahead. If a train was to go past one of these signals at line speed and have a SPAD then this may not entirely hold true.
• The Metropolitan line is special. Largely due to its legacy of being the Metropolitan and Great Central Joint Railway, but also due to the Fast, Semi-Fast and All Stations service patterns (and the many, many historical variations thereof) it was noted that requiring all trains to slow down for stations would significantly impede capacity and many of the benefits of the four-tracking project. As a result higher speed overlaps were provided as listed above (generally) meaning that all trains can dispense with the need to run through stations slowly and if they do have a SPAD they will come to a stand within the protected area. This is further enhanced on the Main Lines with the national rail-style multi-aspect (three/four) signalling, providing more notice of adverse aspects ahead. The key difference from NR is that full speed overlaps are still provided throughout on the majority of signals meaning that if your 60mph steam train has a SPAD it will almost certainly stop before conflicting with anything - yes, the signalling on the Main Lines is steam era and largely is unchanged since then.
• Extended overlaps are a separate concept entirely, but worth mentioning - with regards to the Metropolitan line, this is a specific set of circuitry that is operated during the autumn leaf fall period (it's due to be switched in this year imminently) and extends those signalling overlaps even further, as the name suggests. Coupled with a reduction in line speed on the southbound only from 60mph to 40mph, these overlaps (along with sequential signalling) mitigate against the effects of railhead contamination and hopefully prevent any serious incidents from occurring as a result of uncontrolled SPADs (sliding). Essentially these will hold signals at danger for longer, requiring greater separation between trains and that every track circuit drops and picks back up in the specified order.

Hello, so I am trying to make a scenario for the MET line in my train sim that simulates something similar to a rusty rail move, where I take the train and drive it empty to a specific set of sidings, and then turn the train around and head back the other way. I know from the Dale Charman videos that on the Piccadilly line there are certain rules when running empty, like having speed limits for how fast you can pass the starting signal at stations, with certain stations having higher limits. Is there a set of rules like this for the MET line, and is there anywhere I might be able to read more details about the specific rules for when running empty?

Two words of caution: firstly, the signalling implementation on the Just Trains Metropolitan line route is, at best, an approximation. Particularly with some of the multi-home signalling things won't behave correctly, and it's very easy to collide trains when driving at line speed to the signalling seen without intending to - in reality there would be no collision risk. OTTOMH this won't impact anything at the top end, but is worth mentioning - I think it may be an issue around Wembley - some of the legacy signalling around there was quite interesting. Secondly, whilst LUL is all one happy family with a share rule book, there are many differences between lines, even before things like ATO are considered. An understanding of the Piccadilly line will help with getting a grounding of stuff on the Met, but it won't cover a lot of the intricacies and exceptions, so is something to bear in mind depending on what level of realism you're looking for. Indeed, a re-working of the LUL Rule Books a few years ago placed a lot more emphasis on the relevant Line Supplements such is the breadth of scope nowadays, including moving many long standing procedures away from the pan-LU Rule Books and into the specific Line Supplements. We're not quite at a rule book per line, but it's definitely a useful way of thinking for a lay person.

HTH.

 

[penfold22]

Whilst I think the point has come across, some of the terminology and explanations given here are incorrect, although I appreciate that this seems to be coming from a T/Op perspective whereas my own view is from the (LUL) signalling side. I won't get into too much signalling detail and will focus primarily on the Met, but it shouldn't go uncorrected;

Most definitely not from a T/Op perspective (more an ex-signaller now Controller perspective ) but more a brief / general summary given I was short on time but still wanted to reply. Thank you for adding the more extensive detail

 

[Egg Centric]

southbound only

Why? Naively if I were told it were north/southbound only then I would have guessed northbound since it's closer to the trees!

 

[bluegoblin7]

"It's all uphill to Scotland!"

(It's all downhill from Amersham.)

 

[Class325Guy]

No - the Met line is significantly more complex than other lines and there are different rules depending on exactly where you are. It's worth noting that these rules are not specific to empty running - trains running 'fast via the local' or otherwise non-stopping a station in passenger service can also make use of these overlaps.

There are some additional anomalies (mainly due to things like tripcock testers), but broadly speaking speed limits are as follows:

• Moor Park to Amersham via Main Lines excl. Rickmansworth - 60mph
• Rickmansworth - 25mph (PSR)
• Harrow (excl.) to Moor Park (excl.) via Local Lines - 50mph (Moor Park/Harrow 15mph)
• West Harrow/Rayners Lane - 30/20mph
• Wembley Park (excl.) to Harrow via Local Lines - 25mph
• Wembley Park (incl.) to Harrow via Fast Lines - 50mph

Whilst I think the point has come across, some of the terminology and explanations given here are incorrect, although I appreciate that this seems to be coming from a T/Op perspective whereas my own view is from the (LUL) signalling side. I won't get into too much signalling detail and will focus primarily on the Met, but it shouldn't go uncorrected;

• As a general rule, all London Underground signals have 'full speed' overlaps. These aren't 'extended' (something entirely different) - it's the basic principle of London Underground signalling design. If a train has a SPAD on a signal at line speed, it will stop before it can conflict with a train standing at a signal ahead. This is possible largely due to having specific stock with similar characteristics on each line, all of similar lengths. A fair amount of the signalling work being carried out on the Piccadilly line is to ensure that these principles hold true for the new stock, for instance.
• There are always exceptions (like everything on the railway!) - a lot of the worst examples of 'compromised' overlaps have now been abolished, but where multi-home and/or draw-up signalling exists this principle doesn't always hold true. The biggest exception by far is for station starting signals, which - again, generally - do have reduced overlaps.
• Reduced signalling overlaps on station starters are standard practice on LUL and account for trains slowing, carrying out station duties and accelerating again. Enforcing a reduced speed when travelling non-stop protects the integrity of the signalling, and also proves useful for things like tripcock testers which have their own restrictions. If a train was to SPAD a station starter in a 'winding up' incident (starting away from the platform on a red), or to have a SPAD at the reduced speed, it would stop within the protected area and not come into contact with a train ahead. If a train was to go past one of these signals at line speed and have a SPAD then this may not entirely hold true.
• The Metropolitan line is special. Largely due to its legacy of being the Metropolitan and Great Central Joint Railway, but also due to the Fast, Semi-Fast and All Stations service patterns (and the many, many historical variations thereof) it was noted that requiring all trains to slow down for stations would significantly impede capacity and many of the benefits of the four-tracking project. As a result higher speed overlaps were provided as listed above (generally) meaning that all trains can dispense with the need to run through stations slowly and if they do have a SPAD they will come to a stand within the protected area. This is further enhanced on the Main Lines with the national rail-style multi-aspect (three/four) signalling, providing more notice of adverse aspects ahead. The key difference from NR is that full speed overlaps are still provided throughout on the majority of signals meaning that if your 60mph steam train has a SPAD it will almost certainly stop before conflicting with anything - yes, the signalling on the Main Lines is steam era and largely is unchanged since then.
• Extended overlaps are a separate concept entirely, but worth mentioning - with regards to the Metropolitan line, this is a specific set of circuitry that is operated during the autumn leaf fall period (it's due to be switched in this year imminently) and extends those signalling overlaps even further, as the name suggests. Coupled with a reduction in line speed on the southbound only from 60mph to 40mph, these overlaps (along with sequential signalling) mitigate against the effects of railhead contamination and hopefully prevent any serious incidents from occurring as a result of uncontrolled SPADs (sliding). Essentially these will hold signals at danger for longer, requiring greater separation between trains and that every track circuit drops and picks back up in the specified order.

Two words of caution: firstly, the signalling implementation on the Just Trains Metropolitan line route is, at best, an approximation. Particularly with some of the multi-home signalling things won't behave correctly, and it's very easy to collide trains when driving at line speed to the signalling seen without intending to - in reality there would be no collision risk. OTTOMH this won't impact anything at the top end, but is worth mentioning - I think it may be an issue around Wembley - some of the legacy signalling around there was quite interesting. Secondly, whilst LUL is all one happy family with a share rule book, there are many differences between lines, even before things like ATO are considered. An understanding of the Piccadilly line will help with getting a grounding of stuff on the Met, but it won't cover a lot of the intricacies and exceptions, so is something to bear in mind depending on what level of realism you're looking for. Indeed, a re-working of the LUL Rule Books a few years ago placed a lot more emphasis on the relevant Line Supplements such is the breadth of scope nowadays, including moving many long standing procedures away from the pan-LU Rule Books and into the specific Line Supplements. We're not quite at a rule book per line, but it's definitely a useful way of thinking for a lay person.

HTH.

Thank you for the very detailed info. So I ran into some issues with the JT MET line so I decided to use the District Line instead, although I really wish there was a Piccadilly Line route. I think the distric line uses the same signals as the Just Trains route, so they still might not work accurately. I should also mention I am not from the UK, so most of these routes I am only aware of from what I read and see online,

 

[bluegoblin7]

The District line route is in some ways far superior to the Met as it is a labour of love for the volunteer team rather than being a commercial product. It does use several assets from the Met but the main issue is that signalling implementation in Train Sim full stop is quite basic, so it’s quite hard to work around. The District line is in some ways far simpler but particularly around the Circle and busy junction locations it can still get a bit complex.

Best of luck!

 

[Class325Guy]

The District line route is in some ways far superior to the Met as it is a labour of love for the volunteer team rather than being a commercial product. It does use several assets from the Met but the main issue is that signalling implementation in Train Sim full stop is quite basic, so it’s quite hard to work around. The District line is in some ways far simpler but particularly around the Circle and busy junction locations it can still get a bit complex.

Best of luck!

Oh yeah, the District Line is very detailed, and I cant tell a lot of work went into it, but the few times I have driven it, I've run into issues with signals not clearing or weird route choices, etc. And yes, I know Train Sim itself has its limitations. I would even just be happy to have the Piccadilly Line in SimSig. Even if I couldn't drive it, I would love to operate the signals.

 

[GFE]

I seem to recall some lines (eg central , bak) have additional rules about restricted speed through the whole platform when non stopping/skipping

 

[philthetube]

There are currently trip cock testers at Moor park north and south local, i cant remember about the suth but if you hit the tester on the North at 50mph you will be tripped.


Also I was told that there is a 30mph restriction at Preston Rd South but this is not signed, 50 does feel too fast on the curve there.

 

[Dstock7080]

There are currently trip cock testers at Moor park north and south local, i cant remember about the suth but if you hit the tester on the North at 50mph you will be tripped.

Moor Park northbound only.
15mph through both northbound and southbound local platforms

 

[Class325Guy]

The District line route is in some ways far superior to the Met as it is a labour of love for the volunteer team rather than being a commercial product. It does use several assets from the Met but the main issue is that signalling implementation in Train Sim full stop is quite basic, so it’s quite hard to work around. The District line is in some ways far simpler but particularly around the Circle and busy junction locations it can still get a bit complex.

Best of luck

Hello again, I was hoping I may ask you a few more questions regarding the district line and Train Sim in general.

1) So, I was driving the train from Ealing Broadway and was near Acton Town, following a stopping service. At one of the stations, there is a signal at the beginning of the station which was red due to the AI train being stopped at the station. The issue was that, with the position of the signal, when I stopped at the red signal I was basically sitting almost right behind the other train while also blocking a junction. I am aware that TS has limitations with the signaling, as you said, but I'm not sure if this is a limitation of the signals or how it actually is on the line.

2) I know of controllers such as Train Driver, but are there actually any controllers I can buy that simulate the throttle/brake handle on the 73 stock? I have seen one or 2 vid of people using something that looks like that but I'm not sure if they built them themselves or not.

3) I remember trying to download a few scenarios from the Alan Thomson site, but all of the ones I tried seemed to have weird issues with trains being placed in weird places that would cause them to have issues like static consist clash. I'm pretty sure I tried a couple of different ones from different people and had the same issue. Any ideas on why this would happen?

Thanks