query

[CHESHIRECAT]

I have a railcard issued by employer giving discount on season ticket...
I have not had a season ticket fro a while so went to buy one at the beginning of the month and shwoed the clerk the card and he issued the season ticket

today the guard asked for the railcard (as well as photocard) and to my horror it had expired beforelast year ( the clerk had obviously not noticed it when he issued the ticket) - the guard confiscated the ticket and also said because it was to get me to and from work I should not be alighting at stations on the way (as you can do with a season ticket normally)

this was a genuine oversite on my part ( but the clerk is also at fault for not noticing to be honest)....

any ideas on what the train company will do? i gave my name and address etc

 

[northwichcat]

The conductor is allowed to take expired tickets or railcards off you.

It's your responsbility to check the ticket and railcard is valid. You are supposed to check the ticket clerk issued the correct ticket when you buy the ticket, although a lot of people don't. The ticket clerk should have noticed it but just because a member of rail staff missed it doesn't mean you have a valid excuse for using an out-of-date railcard.

You haven't said what type of railcard you were using but most types don't allow season ticket discounts.

You haven't said which operator you were travelling with - if it was Merseyrail for instance you should have been given a penalty fare or a penalty fare warning, if it was Northern you could finish up being summoned to court.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Thanks.. totally understand guard acted correctly and that my responsibility to check railcard
this type is man airport card that gives discounts on season tickets

there was no intent on my part to act fraudulently.. just a genuine mistake.. nOrthern was operator

 

[northwichcat]

The thing that would sound a bit suspicious is "it had expired before last year" If you have a valid replacement and picked up the wrong one by mistake then it would sound like you just picked up the wrong one by mistake, but as it sounds like you don't I imagine Northern may see it as you're trying to get a staff discount despite no longer working at the Airport or after the offer has been withdrawn.

Was it the conductor who took your details or was it a ticket inspector on the platform at the station?

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Hi

it was the guard on the train.. I do still work at airport (and showed my id as well as further proof of who i was) you can still buy railcards .. but this is first ticket i have bought since railcard expired and like i say, didnt notice it had done so

was also surprised by what he said about not breaking journey because on a season ticket i thought you could travel as often and where u liked on teh route?

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi

it was the guard on the train.. I do still work at airport (and showed my id as well as further proof of who i was) you can still buy railcards .. but this is first ticket i have bought since railcard expired and like i say, didnt notice it had done so

was also surprised by what he said about not breaking journey because on a season ticket i thought you could travel as often and where u liked on teh route?

Are you sure the thing you are talking about is known as a railcard? Or is it a special card to prove eligibility for an airport discount? As others have said seasons are never usually eligible for normal railcard discounts. If it's the latter it may be the reason you can't use your discounted season for intermediate journeys, ie it has been specially negotiated as a travel to work deal for the airport only. In other words if you get off short you can't be going to the airport...

PS Google found this from 2007:

Staff based at Manchester Airport can now benefit from cheaper rail fares, thanks to a new discount card.

The discount card enables a 25% price reduction off rail tickets for travel between an employees’ home station and the Airport. The discount card can be purchased, together with a passport size photo and staff identity badge, at an introductory offer of £10 for the first 500 sold; thereafter it will be £20 on an annual basis.

To receive the 25% discount, tickets must be purchased prior to boarding the train. The discount card, which can be purchased at the Cycle Centre based in Manchester Airport Rail Station, enables discounts on all types of single, return and season tickets (with the exception of System One Traincard and Countycard).

 

[yorkie]

I've never heard of an Airport workers Railcard and have no idea how it works. Who pays for it? If it's something to do with your employer, do they not automatically issue a new one, or is it something you have to apply, and pay for?

As for break of journey (BOJ) not being allowed.. this is not something I am familiar with.

Were you not told of this restriction when you bought the Railcard? is there a list of terms & conditions somewhere?

 

[swt_passenger]

I've never heard of an Airport workers Railcard and have no idea how it works. Who pays for it? If it's something to do with your employer, do they not automatically issue a new one, or is it something you have to apply, and pay for?

As for break of journey (BOJ) not being allowed.. this is not something I am familiar with.

Were you not told of this restriction when you bought the Railcard? is there a list of terms & conditions somewhere?

Some of your questions are explained in my 'recently edited' post, I think

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

yes it is the 25% discount card

was just issued the card with no conditions

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I've never heard of an Airport workers Railcard and have no idea how it works. Who pays for it? If it's something to do with your employer, do they not automatically issue a new one, or is it something you have to apply, and pay for?

As for break of journey (BOJ) not being allowed.. this is not something I am familiar with.

Were you not told of this restriction when you bought the Railcard? is there a list of terms & conditions somewhere?

I am afraid I can't copy and paste from the fares manual at the moment, but this is a summary of the details for the railcard the OP refers to-

a - it is called the Manchester Airport Staff Railcard.

b - it is available to anybody who works at MIA and holds a security pass - except Rail Staff.

c - the "home" station of the holder should be printed on the railcard, and it is only valid for travel from that station to Manchester Airport. Break of journey or starting or finishing your journey at intermediate stations is NOT permitted, except to change trains to complete the journey.

d - the railcard gives a 25% discount on all walk up fares between the home station and Manchester Airport, including season tickets, but not PTE products.

e - the railcard can only be purchased from the booking office at Manchester Airport station.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

interesting... so that cluase about break of journey applies to season tickets as well then.. oh well i guess i am scuppered.. any likelihood on penalty?

 

[Greenback]

interesting... so that cluase about break of journey applies to season tickets as well then.. oh well i guess i am scuppered.. any likelihood on penalty?

Probably depends on the TOC and how seriously the view it. From what i read on these forums, Northern seem to have quite a robust revenue protection policy. They have th eoption of prosecuting you for fare evasion, but I can;t say whether they will.

It may be worth your while sending them a letter of apology, outlining the circumstances - ie you are returning to using a season ticket after a long break.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

thanks.. i have not heard from them yet.. presume it will be a while
not sure what the prosecution would be to be hones

 

[yorkie]

If they decide to prosecute they would have to prove intent to avoid the correct payment. Obviously, you didn't intend that, but.... when they have good lawyers who are experienced in how to win such cases .... so a robust defence is needed. You have a PM.

But hopefully it won't come to that.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

not sure what the prosecution would be to be hones

The offence would be travelling without a valid ticket.

If you search for a lawyer who specialises in defending passengers accused of this offence (both accidental oversights and deliberate fare evasion) then you should brief them sooner rather than later with all your facts and ask them to advise you on the options available to you.

If you wait too long you may have to appear in court, where you will have few choices!

 

[First class]

Everyone seems to be overlooking an obvious course of action, a good possibility is:

The OP's employer will be informed one of their employees was travelling without a valid ticket, attempting to obtain discounted services by use of an expired travel pass or authority originally obtained by being a 'representative' of said company.

The employer decides that the employee has misused their privileges and is disciplined in accordance with the company policy, probably resulting in withdrawal of travel concessions.

There will be a record kept of that railcard and any application details.

I'm basing this on the way that general Rail Staff Travel is regulated.

 

[Greenback]

My personal opinion is that it's more likely that First Class is right, and Northern will pass details on to Manchester Airport and that the OP will face some sort of disciplinary action. I don;t know what that would be, but it seems appropriate to lose the staff travel concessions.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Ok...I accept that the out of date card is not something that should have escaped my notice...nobody has actually said whether the guard was correct ref his statement that journey cannot be broken...it is a season ticket end of..there is nothing in the leaflet you get with the card to say u cannot break your journey with a seasom bought in conjunction with it

 

[cuccir]

I am afraid I can't copy and paste from the fares manual at the moment, but this is a summary of the details for the railcard the OP refers to-

a - it is called the Manchester Airport Staff Railcard.

b - it is available to anybody who works at MIA and holds a security pass - except Rail Staff.

c - the "home" station of the holder should be printed on the railcard, and it is only valid for travel from that station to Manchester Airport. Break of journey or starting or finishing your journey at intermediate stations is NOT permitted, except to change trains to complete the journey.

d - the railcard gives a 25% discount on all walk up fares between the home station and Manchester Airport, including season tickets, but not PTE products.

e - the railcard can only be purchased from the booking office at Manchester Airport station.

I've highlighted the relevant point in regards of break of journey. Because the ticket was bought using this Manchester Airport employees railcard, I'm afraid that these extra conditions apply and that no break of journey is allowed. That said, you should of course be able to access these terms and conditions somewhere or be told of them on purchase. If this is not the case, then these T&Cs aren't valid.

Do you still have the receipt or some other proof of purchase with the date on it? If you can keep hold of this then you can at least prove that buying the season ticket was an honest mistake, as the ticket-selling staff should have checked the date on the railcard. I'd have thought this might be useful for you to prove that this was error rather than fraud, in the case of any possible disciplinary hearing

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

I've highlighted the relevant point in regards of break of journey. Because the ticket was bought using this Manchester Airport employees railcard, I'm afraid that these extra conditions apply and that no break of journey is allowed. That said, you should of course be able to access these terms and conditions somewhere or be told of them on purchase. If this is not the case, then these T&Cs aren't valid.

Do you still have the receipt or some other proof of purchase with the date on it? If you can keep hold of this then you can at least prove that buying the season ticket was an honest mistake, as the ticket-selling staff should have checked the date on the railcard. I'd have thought this might be useful for you to prove that this was error rather than fraud, in the case of any possible disciplinary hearing

The seasom ticket was retained but I can produce c card statement to prove when it bought..the leaflet you get mentions nothing about break of journey..with a season u are allowed to anyway.. I was not asled to pay fare

 

[scrapy]

If when the railcard was taken from you, you offerered to paid the correct fare for your journey then I doubt you will be prosecuted. Intent to avoid paying has to be proved by the TOC. Was this Northern or TPE?

Despite some stories on here Northern will only prosecute when there has been intent not to pay (such as walking out of a staffed station at the end of your journey without purchasing a ticket, especially when there were ticket purchasing facilities at origin station), giving false details, or short fareing (claiming to have boarded their train at the last station to get a cheaper fare, when in fact they didn't).

If you want to renew the railcard I would suggest the honest thing to do would be to have it backdated to the expiry of the previous one, if you have been travelling at a discount rate during this time. This would further prove there has been no intent to defraud.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

If when the railcard was taken from you, you offerered to paid the correct fare for your journey then I doubt you will be prosecuted. Intent to avoid paying has to be proved by the TOC. Was this Northern or TPE?

Despite some stories on here Northern will only prosecute when there has been intent not to pay (such as walking out of a staffed station at the end of your journey without purchasing a ticket, especially when there were ticket purchasing facilities at origin station), giving false details, or short fareing (claiming to have boarded their train at the last station to get a cheaper fare, when in fact they didn't).

If you want to renew the railcard I would suggest the honest thing to do would be to have it backdated to the expiry of the previous one, if you have been travelling at a discount rate during this time. This would further prove there has been no intent to defraud.

No..just had ticket taken... And the nil fare ticket issued.. I said shall I get another railcard and said he said u are going to have to but no suggestion that if I did I would be given ticket back..(I cud have got one there and then and train lays over in man apt)