Query Over Settelement Amount

[TVcabinet123]

Hi all,

October last year, I was travelling with a ticket and had not realised my railcard has expired about 6 weeks before. I was taken away by the prosecution officer and honestly nearly pissed my pants. I'm a doctor so prosecutions have big impacts on GMC and my liscence to practice. I hadnt realised this but i had a few short train rides where no one has checked for my railcard or even my ticket and this wasnt brought up. Railcards are cheap, I've never had the intention of not having a valid railcard with me.

The problem is I DID on 3 occasions buy a 17-19 railcard tickets, most of the time when I knew these would not be checked anyways and they were never scanned. Reflecting back now this was stupiiiiid and the 3-4 ish pounds i saved was not worth it.

After last summer, I didnt receive anything from the trains again, and after 6 months i stopped checking. Today I received an email that said I could settle for 2.7k(???) and that they had sent me a letter to an old address still registered on Trainline but not the one I gave the prosecution officer.

I've planned to reply that I'm sorry, and that i really did forget the railcard (26-30). They have asked about the 17-19 railcard but idk how to say this without incriminating myself besides the fact that some of these were never scanned. I would really like to know how they came up to 2.7k though cause the amount seems exessive as I only had about 3-4 train travels without the railcard.

Can I apeal for a lower amount? What can I do here? Any advise?

 

[Gloster]

I suggest that you post the letter that you received in this thread so that the experts know exactly what the situation is. Please obscure your name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

 

[TVcabinet123]

Thank you

I suggest that you post the letter that you received in this thread so that the experts know exactly what the situation is. Please obscure your name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

Thank you, I've attached it now

 

[Gloster]

If you read the last two sentences you will see that they are only asking for £1,295.20 for the tickets and £90 for their investigation costs: investigation costs usually start at £150. They calculate the amount they ask for on the basis of the full Anytime Single fare for each and every journey made without the correct ticket; for a Return journey that will be two fares: one out and one back. No allowance is made for any money you did pay or for any reductions you may be entitled to.

 

[skyhigh]

I've planned to reply that I'm sorry, and that i really did forget the railcard (26-30). They have asked about the 17-19 railcard but idk how to say this without incriminating myself besides the fact that some of these were never scanned. I would really like to know how they came up to 2.7k though cause the amount seems exessive as I only had about 3-4 train travels without the railcard.

Have you actually read the letter you have posted?

It clearly says the £2769 was incorrect and the new offer is £1385.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

It also says they have attached a list of the journeys that they believe you didn't pay a full fare for. What does this total up to? Do you disagree with it?

 

[TVcabinet123]

Have you actually read the letter you have posted?

It clearly says the £2769 was incorrect and the new offer is £1385.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

It also says they have attached a list of the journeys that they believe you didn't pay a full fare for. What does this total up to? Do you disagree with it?

I did - im confused as the email she sent to me today again quoted the 2.7k in the body - to be paid in 14 days. I havent got the list of journeys and thats a good point - i will ask for that in my reply. Drafting a reply now, so thats useful

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

Have you actually read the letter you have posted?

It clearly says the £2769 was incorrect and the new offer is £1385.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

It also says they have attached a list of the journeys that they believe you didn't pay a full fare for. What does this total up to? Do you disagree with it?

 

[skyhigh]

It would probably help if you uploaded copies of all the emails you have received, as (to me at least) the timeline and what has actually been said is a little confusing.

 

[TVcabinet123]

It would probably help if you uploaded copies of all the emails you have received, as (to me at least) the timeline and what has actually been said is a little confusing.

I've uploaded now the only piece of interaction I've received from them.

August 2023 was when I was caught with an expired railcard (Expired mid June 2023). I've since not received anything from them and only today this email. Im assuming from their email the correspondence was sent to the wrong address, the one registered on the Trainline app and not the one I gave the officer.

 

[skyhigh]

I've uploaded now the only piece of interaction I've received from them.

So you've only received one letter, shown above, that's it?

 

[AlterEgo]

Interesting to see they are threatening civil and not criminal action here. I’m not sure we’ve seen that before.

 

[TVcabinet123]

So you've only received one letter, shown above, that's it?

yes! just this email with the letter attached

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

Interesting to see they are threatening civil and not criminal action here. I’m not sure we’ve seen that before.

Is there a big difference? I have 0 legal background and have tried googling this but it seems like civil is like small claims court instead of the magistrates?

 

[Adam Williams]

Is there a big difference?

As this could potentially impact fitness to practice, you should probably urgently seek advice from someone at the BMA or e.g. the MDU on this matter - frankly it goes beyond what this forum can directly assist with - but my admittedly very shaky understanding of things is that the GMC mostly care about when you're charged or found guilty of a criminal offence and that does need to be declared. I am not sure civil action of this nature would carry the same requirements.

 

[ikcdab]

To be honest, if you are a doctor and you cannot risk any kind of action against you, then you are best off just paying the £1300 to make it go away.

 

[Adam Williams]

Sanity check the list of journeys when you get it, by all means, but yeah - probably most sensible to just pay it given the risks here. Presumably they could pursue a criminal case if they wanted to (maybe too many months ago?) and even if they don't end up doing this, CCJs aren't much fun.

 

[furlong]

They have totalled up some fares that they believe you didn't pay but should have done. They claim to have provided you with that list. If you don't have it, you must ask for it.

Once you have that list, your options are:
1) Accept it as correct (or so close to being correct as not worth arguing about) and pay the sum demanded.

2) Dispute it and attempt to negotiate a lower sum. E.g. if you didn't make some of the journeys, or you dispute the way the fares were calculated and believe that, based on the contract formed when you travelled, it should have been calculated differently. You can't do this without seeing the breakdown of the money being claimed. (If you share a few of the line items, the forum may comment on the basis of their calculations.)
a) The outcome could be an agreement to pay either the original sum or a negotiated hopefully lower sum. (It could go up if they discover something they missed.)
b) If you don't reach an agreement, they can make a claim against you in court, and you can present your arguments as to why the amount should be lower to the court, and it will make a decision on the balance of probabilities (roughly speaking. the sum it decides is most likely to be right).

3) Do nothing. They will make a claim against you in court and if the court agrees, it'll order you to pay the sum demanded, and if you don't, you'll face all the normal consequences, extra charges, bailiffs, bad credit rating etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2024 ==

As long as you don't go for option 3 i.e. you pay off the full debt either now or after a new amount is decided, there should be no implications for your job (fitness to practice etc.)

 

[30907]

I've uploaded now the only piece of interaction I've received from them.

It's surprising, then, that they have acknowledged the previous 26-30 Railcard as normally a TOC will ask you to supply evidence of same.

Is there a big difference? I have 0 legal background and have tried googling this but it seems like civil is like small claims court instead of the magistrates?

The reason they are taking the civil claim route is because they are several months too late to (threaten to) prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws, which has to be within 6months of the offence.

As to the amount, you have a list of journeys where they believe you didn't pay the correct fare. You need to look at this in detail - if there are instances where the fare you paid or the refund you claimed was correct, you could choose to dispute them.
(You can check their calculation of the Anytime fares via BRFares.com ; they only go back to March 2023 so will give you a good idea.)

 

[island]

I did - im confused as the email she sent to me today again quoted the 2.7k in the body - to be paid in 14 days. I havent got the list of journeys and thats a good point - i will ask for that in my reply. Drafting a reply now, so thats useful

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2024 ==

The amount you need to pay is £1,385.20.

This isn't negotiable on the grounds of being "a big amount" but if you can show that they have calculated it wrongly or charged you for journeys where you did have a ticket, it can be brought down.

This is not a criminal matter, you are not being charged with an offence, and if it does go to court and is found against you, you will get a CCJ – which if paid within a month will not go on any record.

I advise paying the £1,385.20 as soon as possible.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's surprising, then, that they have acknowledged the previous 26-30 Railcard as normally a TOC will ask you to supply evidence of same.

If the Railcard was purchased through a third party retailer, I'd assume the TOC would get the details as part of the response to their Data Protection Act request for someone's purchase history.

 

[Adam Williams]

If the Railcard was purchased through a third party retailer, I'd assume the TOC would get the details as part of the response to their Data Protection Act request for someone's purchase history.

Railcard purchases get put in a central (RDG-controlled) database as soon as they're purchased (+ ~a small delay) in any case. A good third-party retailer should make this clear at the point of purchase