Quarantine

[yorkie]

....and that a plane is fairly high-risk. ...

Do you have evidence of this? I thought this was debunked in previous threads?

Aircraft ventilation is negative-pressure, top down and HEPA filtered for recirculation, analogous to hospital high-dependency units....

.... air planes that recirculate air

Then you're someone who clearly doesn't understand how aircraft air filtering works.

All of the research that I’ve read, going back to ‘Bird Flu’ has tended to suggest that on board transmission risk is actually comparatively low, particularly compared to (say) the widely-publicised recent research regarding transmission in a restaurant.....

The airplane is almost certainly not going to be the place you pick the virus up. Notwithstanding the fact that masks are pretty much a requirement to fly at the moment, but the air inside an aircraft is constantly filtered through HEPA filters and is mixed with fresh air from the outside. This means in effect that the air is completely replaced inside the cabin on average every 2 yo 3 minutes.

 

[adc82140]

I'm afraid I have to agree with you again on this, that's twice in just a few days.

I cannot understand the rush for 'frivolous' international travel while there's a major pandemic going on. It's easy for me to say though as I haven't gone abroad since 2003 and have no desire to. For me even a UK holiday is off the agenda this year. It just isn't the time.

Not all foreign travel is frivolous. In my case, I'm mid way through selling a property in France. We need the funds to fill a family income gap caused by lockdown (family member works in the live music industry) But it's all on hold at the moment as I can't get over there to clear it out. So thanks, Boris. Keep turning the knife.

 

[Domh245]

It's all very good putting a quarantine in place, but if nobody's going to enforce it then what's the point?

At present, it's pretty unenforceable. And is any effort being made to try to enforce it?

Judging by the rush of people back from France to try and beat it's introduction, it would seem to be fairly self enforcing, much like the restrictions earlier in the year.

 

[AM9]

Judging by the rush of people back from France to try and beat it's introduction, it would seem to be fairly self enforcing, much like the restrictions earlier in the year.

If governments actually enforce the quarantines that they impose, yes the majority of internatioal holiday makers will: 1) make sure that they treat the deadlines seriously and 2) weigh up just how important a trip abroad vs staying in their own country is, which will moderate the level of international travel whilst the risks are still there.

Not all foreign travel is frivolous. In my case, I'm mid way through selling a property in France. We need the funds to fill a family income gap caused by lockdown (family member works in the live music industry) But it's all on hold at the moment as I can't get over there to clear it out. So thanks, Boris. Keep turning the knife.

Of course, the Government was specifically targetting you and they should stop trying to deal with the issue of importing infection for the second wave because they failed in the first wave and you are still OK.
On a scale of frivolity, selling an overseas property might not be top, but there are certainly more important things that need to be done at the moment.

 

[AM9]

I love your term “failed holidays”!

Have to say I’m genuinely torn over the quarantining. We could certainly have done without so many imported cases back in February from things like ski trips, but that was before all the social distancing measures came into being here. However if we’re trying to get away from that and keep cases manageable then we could do without imported cases now too.

However it’s easy for me to say as I don’t do foreign holidays myself, and judging by the state our beaches and honeypots are being left in on a daily basis, to be honest I’d rather people did their normal thing and went to Ibeza, and left our sites for those who know how to treat them!

I do take foreign holidays and decided early this year that they were unlikely to be viable so didn't bother*. I wasn't lured by the re-launching of cheap holidays in June because they smacked of desperation by the travel trade and seemed too risky for the current stage of the pandemic. At the time I remember some people boasting that they had bargain flights/accommodation and couldn't wait to get out of the UK for a week or two. For many ,that didn't work well did it!

* We even planned to spend a few days in Chester in May, the trip there last year was spoiltr by me having a heavy cold. We then realised that we could be subject to movement restrictions there, - we thought that restricted to our house wojuld be better than an apartment in a northern city, (something that still might be likely in Chester).

 

[AM9]

The chance of anyone having it on the aircraft is low and remember air inside aircraft is replaced frequently so very little chance of catching anything whilst flying. Where is this second wave? There may be an increase in numbers but it's very slow and definitely not a wave. The countries experiencing high increases are those that had very few infections in the first place so arguably are on their first wave.

Airlines have for years run the air exchange rate as low as possible because taking air from the main comressors uses extra fuel. Many airlines ran the fresh air at 10% with a 90% recirculation of air from the cabin. That was why they were asked to increase the rate as part of the measures to try and reduce transmission. There is a temptation to do less recirculation on short-haul flights as CO2 levels would be imposed for a shorter time.

 

[adc82140]

If governments actually enforce the quarantines that they impose, yes the majority of internatioal holiday makers will: 1) make sure that they treat the deadlines seriously and 2) weigh up just how important a trip abroad vs staying in their own country is, which will moderate the level of international travel whilst the risks are still there.

Of course, the Government was specifically targetting you and they should stop trying to deal with the issue of importing infection for the second wave because they failed in the first wave and you are still OK.
On a scale of frivolity, selling an overseas property might not be top, but there are certainly more important things that need to be done at the moment.

So you think my family member should just suck it up because they've lost their job, and need to raise money by whatever means.

 

[AM9]

So you think my family member should just suck it up because they've lost their job, and need to raise money by whatever means.

Trying to put words into my mouth will get your argument nowhere. COVID-19 has caused (and will cause) many ills on the population, most of which are not deserved. These ills range from the bearable inconveniences of not being able to go to pubs, music events, holidays etc., through more serious matters such as unemployment, loss of businesses, to the most serious of all, severe illness, (sometimes chronic) and ultimately loss of life. In the case of the last two mentioned items, that seriousness can be permanent and no amount of money will mitigate their impact.
In a complex society, these issues cut across all circumstances, and many trivial deprivations may affect other areas of life more seriously, but compromising safety measures with an almost infinite number loopholes is no way of managing the problem that the whole population is faced with.

 

[Richard Scott]

So you think my family member should just suck it up because they've lost their job, and need to raise money by whatever means.

Problem is some people are so hooked up on the whole virus issue if anyone is outside of those parameters it doesn't count. Hope you can get it sorted, I was planning a trip away that was ruined by this, was only wanting to go for my own wellbeing but I'm probably being selfish. Appreciate your position is worse than mine and if it were me would be causing severe anguish. All the best with sorting bit out.

 

[Meerkat]

The rate in a particular destination country isn’t the only issue.
it won’t only be British tourists going there, it will be tourists from all over. So you are exposed to people travelling from all over the place, and by definition they are higher risk as travellers. And if they go home and develop symptoms what are the chances of contact tracing going via the holiday country to here so the British person can be isolated?

 

[adc82140]

Problem is some people are so hooked up on the whole virus issue if anyone is outside of those parameters it doesn't count. Hope you can get it sorted, I was planning a trip away that was ruined by this, was only wanting to go for my own wellbeing but I'm probably being selfish. Appreciate your position is worse than mine and if it were me would be causing severe anguish. All the best with sorting bit out.

Thanks. Fortunately things are balanced by the fact I work in the health service, so I consider that to be a safe job right now. The French property is 50/50 owned by myself and the other family member who needs the cash. I'm happy to sell up in order for them to realise their share of the capital. To be honest I'm not getting any younger and a 10 hour drive from Calais is getting quite onerous. I have my eye on a holiday park lodge on the Isle of Wight.

 

[Richard Scott]

The rate in a particular destination country isn’t the only issue.
it won’t only be British tourists going there, it will be tourists from all over. So you are exposed to people travelling from all over the place, and by definition they are higher risk as travellers. And if they go home and develop symptoms what are the chances of contact tracing going via the holiday country to here so the British person can be isolated?

The chance of that happening to lots of people is incredibly low, if it's only one person then it's not a big deal. I know it can have complications for some people but highly unlikely in someone who's gone abroad on holiday. More chance of being killed in the transport getting you there/back?

 

[AM9]

The chance of that happening to lots of people is incredibly low, if it's only one person then it's not a big deal. I know it can have complications for some people but highly unlikely in someone who's gone abroad on holiday. More chance of being killed in the transport getting you there/back?

So if that "only one person" get to the resort and/or back home and then passes it on to friends/relatives who might be vulnerable, (or even the staff in the holiday restasurant/bar where they spend much of their holiday), what happens then. That 'only one person' has now created at least one other case, - maybe more.
It's not about individuals once the social distancing is dropped, - that's how it got from China to Europe.
I don't think you understand the issue of transmission of disease and what happens next.

 

[Meerkat]

The chance of that happening to lots of people is incredibly low, if it's only one person then it's not a big deal. I know it can have complications for some people but highly unlikely in someone who's gone abroad on holiday. More chance of being killed in the transport getting you there/back?

Errr....it’s how the virus got here the first time! And part of the problem was that in Britain it’s the older folk with the most money to go on holiday to places where nationalities mix.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Errr....it’s how the virus got here the first time! And part of the problem was that in Britain it’s the older folk with the most money to go on holiday to places where nationalities mix.

And older people go on more coach tours and cruises which mix people closely...

 

[Richard Scott]

So if that "only one person" get to the resort and/or back home and then passes it on to friends/relatives who might be vulnerable, (or even the staff in the holiday restasurant/bar where they spend much of their holiday), what happens then. That 'only one person' has now created at least one other case, - maybe more.
It's not about individuals once the social distancing is dropped, - that's how it got from China to Europe.
I don't think you understand the issue of transmission of disease and what happens next.

Oh I do understand and also understand need to get on with life. Please don't be so patronising. We've been through all this before with playing the vulnerable person card. There are around 300,000 people awaiting cancer treatment/proper diagnosis whilst you worry about a few cases of something that's highly unlikely to kill you. This virus or cancer, I'll take the former thank you.

 

[Richard Scott]

Errr....it’s how the virus got here the first time! And part of the problem was that in Britain it’s the older folk with the most money to go on holiday to places where nationalities mix.

It did, I'm not stupid and quite capable of working that out for myself. However it's been here a while, numbers have gone up and back down again and we've acquired some immunity so I'm afraid a few people going away is not going to make a significant difference in numbers. It seems you're proposing we all stay put until every last case is sorted? I'm not prepared to do that and fed up with some of our population blowing it out of all proportion as though it's the only disease in the country. There are other diseases and other issues including a trashed economy so why don't we all sit around and let everything collapse around us? When the virus comes back and we have no NHS as no-one can pay for it, it's going to be great then. A few people going on holiday isn't going to make a huge difference.

 

[route101]

I'm afraid I have to agree with you again on this, that's twice in just a few days.

I cannot understand the rush for 'frivolous' international travel while there's a major pandemic going on. It's easy for me to say though as I haven't gone abroad since 2003 and have no desire to. For me even a UK holiday is off the agenda this year. It just isn't the time.

I aint going aboad this year , did go away last month down south, found it nice to get away. Next year id like to go abroad and see some new places, do find it a bit expensive to holiday in UK and sick of seeing same chains of shops.

 

[Jamiescott1]

I'm afraid I have to agree with you again on this, that's twice in just a few days.

I cannot understand the rush for 'frivolous' international travel while there's a major pandemic going on. It's easy for me to say though as I haven't gone abroad since 2003 and have no desire to. For me even a UK holiday is off the agenda this year. It just isn't the time.

Theres a pandemic, id hardly call it major.
I've had 4 lovely holidays abroad this year so far and plan 2 more.

Regarding the "rush for frivolous" travel. Due to quarantine restrictions, my partner cannot visit her home country to see how family this year. I would not consider that frivolous.

 

[Mag_seven]

What happened to the "traffic light system" that the government were going to introduce?

Coronavirus: UK to scrap quarantine rule for some of our most popular destinations

France, Greece and Spain are to become available destinations for holidaymakers as quarantine measures are abandoned.

news.sky.com

Officials will replace existing rules with a traffic light system that will see countries placed into green, amber and red categories based on the prevalence of coronavirus in each.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Didn't Guernsey introduce something similar recently, with the only place in the 'Green' category being the Isle of Man?

 

[AM9]

Oh I do understand and also understand need to get on with life. Please don't be so patronising. We've been through all this before with playing the vulnerable person card. There are around 300,000 people awaiting cancer treatment/proper diagnosis whilst you worry about a few cases of something that's highly unlikely to kill you. This virus or cancer, I'll take the former thank you.

Well, "getting on with life" needn't involve putting people who can't or don't want to travel abroad at risk. There are there other ways of 'getting on with life', - it not just about what you want.
Although I am in the vulnerable age group, I'm not 'playing the vulnerable person card' at all. Where have I said that it is my health that I am trying to protect? I do consider others though, not just family and friends, but regrettably, we are going to have to live with a high number of excess deaths occurring in 2020 and probably 2021.
I could have gone abroad this year but decided that it would be a selfish act and it could put others at risk. It wouldn't have been to the usual popular resorts, - that's not my idea of a holiday, and those places can be major transmission points of the infection. A few weeks ago there were those who had bought holidays in traditional European resorts congratulating themselves on the bargain prices that they paid. For many, that chicken is coming home to roost now, first it was Spain, then Belgium, now France and the Netherlands. In a few days, it may be Greece and Turkey that brings a 'free' two week extension to the holiday, - confined to their houses. All the telltale signs were (and still are) there that quarantine was/is a likely outcome. Fortunately, the Government, presumably supported by their behavioural psychologists, decided that there should be as little time as practicable between confirming the quarantine and the deadline for arriving back in the UK. Despite the bleating of those who didn't read the obvious signs before leaving, the government looks like it will be imposing more short sharp action to (hopefully) limit the import of more infectious travellers. If this burgeoning second wave does get out of hand in the autumn/winter, the NHS will again be under great pressure which will threaten the proper diagnosis and treatment of other serious ailments, so some people's type of 'getting on with life' might well place the safety of those with other health problems at greater than necessary risk.

 

[takno]

What happened to the "traffic light system" that the government were going to introduce?

Coronavirus: UK to scrap quarantine rule for some of our most popular destinations

France, Greece and Spain are to become available destinations for holidaymakers as quarantine measures are abandoned.

news.sky.com

It's basically a traffic light scheme, it just that the amber phase only lasts 12 hours

 

[AM9]

Theres a pandemic, id hardly call it major.
I've had 4 lovely holidays abroad this year so far and plan 2 more.

Regarding the "rush for frivolous" travel. Due to quarantine restrictions, my partner cannot visit her home country to see how family this year. I would not consider that frivolous.

I haven't seen my daughter or granddaughter since before Christmas and she only lives 80 miles away. Doing so might put her patient's lives at risk, so like most people, I have to make do with phone and Zoom calls. I presume that your partner could do the same.
As I said above, "In a complex society, these issues cut across all circumstances, and many trivial deprivations may affect other areas of life more seriously, but compromising safety measures with an almost infinite number loopholes is no way of managing the problem that the whole population is faced with." Note the word 'trivial' is a relative term which is compared to the many life and death issues that are being handled.

 

[Richard Scott]

Well, "getting on with life" needn't involve putting people who can't or don't want to travel abroad at risk. There are there other ways of 'getting on with life', - it not just about what you want.
Although I am in the vulnerable age group, I'm not 'playing the vulnerable person card' at all. Where have I said that it is my health that I am trying to protect? I do consider others though, not just family and friends, but regrettably, we are going to have to live with a high number of excess deaths occurring in 2020 and probably 2021.
I could have gone abroad this year but decided that it would be a selfish act and it could put others at risk. It wouldn't have been to the usual popular resorts, - that's not my idea of a holiday, and those places can be major transmission points of the infection. A few weeks ago there were those who had bought holidays in traditional European resorts congratulating themselves on the bargain prices that they paid. For many, that chicken is coming home to roost now, first it was Spain, then Belgium, now France and the Netherlands. In a few days, it may be Greece and Turkey that brings a 'free' two week extension to the holiday, - confined to their houses. All the telltale signs were (and still are) there that quarantine was/is a likely outcome. Fortunately, the Government, presumably supported by their behavioural psychologists, decided that there should be as little time as practicable between confirming the quarantine and the deadline for arriving back in the UK. Despite the bleating of those who didn't read the obvious signs before leaving, the government looks like it will be imposing more short sharp action to (hopefully) limit the import of more infectious travellers. If this burgeoning second wave does get out of hand in the autumn/winter, the NHS will again be under great pressure which will threaten the proper diagnosis and treatment of other serious ailments, so some people's type of 'getting on with life' might well place the safety of those with other health problems at greater than necessary risk.

It's just getting ridiculous, we're now being told we're selfish for wanting to go away. Some countries have a lower infection rate than we do so how are we putting others at risk? We need a sense of reality. Look at the figures, if there's more than 1 in 1000 people with this virus in any European country then it won't be much higher. No-one is advocating putting people at risk unnecessarily but it's also unfair to expect others to put their lives on hold. Let's get a sense of reality, people are getting fed up with restrictions, other medical issues are going unchecked, mental health is a problem for some and domestic violence is on the up. But none of that matters as long as we're all focused on making everyone feel safe. I'm genuinely sorry you're in a vulnerable group but you can't expect everyone's life to stop because of that. If boot was on the other foot I wouldn't.

 

[AM9]

It's basically a traffic light scheme, it just that the amber phase only lasts 12 hours

That's correct, just like road traffic lights where the amber phase is much shorter than the red and green ones.

 

[bramling]

Well, "getting on with life" needn't involve putting people who can't or don't want to travel abroad at risk. There are there other ways of 'getting on with life', - it not just about what you want.
Although I am in the vulnerable age group, I'm not 'playing the vulnerable person card' at all. Where have I said that it is my health that I am trying to protect? I do consider others though, not just family and friends, but regrettably, we are going to have to live with a high number of excess deaths occurring in 2020 and probably 2021.
I could have gone abroad this year but decided that it would be a selfish act and it could put others at risk. It wouldn't have been to the usual popular resorts, - that's not my idea of a holiday, and those places can be major transmission points of the infection. A few weeks ago there were those who had bought holidays in traditional European resorts congratulating themselves on the bargain prices that they paid. For many, that chicken is coming home to roost now, first it was Spain, then Belgium, now France and the Netherlands. In a few days, it may be Greece and Turkey that brings a 'free' two week extension to the holiday, - confined to their houses. All the telltale signs were (and still are) there that quarantine was/is a likely outcome. Fortunately, the Government, presumably supported by their behavioural psychologists, decided that there should be as little time as practicable between confirming the quarantine and the deadline for arriving back in the UK. Despite the bleating of those who didn't read the obvious signs before leaving, the government looks like it will be imposing more short sharp action to (hopefully) limit the import of more infectious travellers. If this burgeoning second wave does get out of hand in the autumn/winter, the NHS will again be under great pressure which will threaten the proper diagnosis and treatment of other serious ailments, so some people's type of 'getting on with life' might well place the safety of those with other health problems at greater than necessary risk.

As I said elsewhere I don’t feel I know enough to be able to comment on whether the quarantines are an over-reaction or not. However I completely agree that no one can really complain that they didn’t know what they were (potentially) letting themselves in for when booking a foreign holiday.

Just like no one can complain about weather when going on a UK holiday, as I bet many are this week! August has been a dodgy month for UK holidays for as long as I can remember.

As ever De Piffle tried to garner a bit of popularity with the air bridges, and has probably managed to pee off more people now.

 

[AM9]

It's just getting ridiculous, we're now being told we're selfish for wanting to go away. Some countries have a lower infection rate than we do so how are we putting others at risk? We need a sense of reality. Look at the figures, if there's more than 1 in 1000 people with this virus in any European country then it won't be much higher. No-one is advocating putting people at risk unnecessarily but it's also unfair to expect others to put their lives on hold. Let's get a sense of reality, people are getting fed up with restrictions, other medical issues are going unchecked, mental health is a problem for some and domestic violence is on the up. But none of that matters as long as we're all focused on making everyone feel safe. I'm genuinely sorry you're in a vulnerable group but you can't expect everyone's life to stop because of that. If boot was on the other foot I wouldn't.

You need to read what I said again: " I could have gone abroad this year but decided that it would be a selfish act and it could put others at risk. " That was about me going to the crowded resorts.
Not having a foreign holiday is not 'putting a life on hold'. Being confined to one's own home is much nearer to putting lives on hold, but that is a consequence of insisting on taking a holiday when there was a known risk of quarantine and in any case, only lasts up to 2 weeks. Getting 'fed up' is a part of normal life.
Most of the population is focussed on keeping everyone safe, - that is much more important. No need to feel sorry for a person because they are in their '70s though, I quite like it, but as I made clear, I am only considered 'vulnerable' by virtue of my age. I shop, travel locally on public transport and today went for a swim, - things that truly vulnerable people might not be able to enjoy.

 

[Richard Scott]

You need to read what I said again: " I could have gone abroad this year but decided that it would be a selfish act and it could put others at risk. " That was about me going to the crowded resorts.
Not having a foreign holiday is not 'putting a life on hold'. Being confined to one's own home is much nearer to putting lives on hold, but that is a consequence of insisting on taking a holiday when there was a known risk of quarantine and in any case, only lasts up to 2 weeks. Getting 'fed up' is a part of normal life.
Most of the population is focussed on keeping everyone safe, - that is much more important. No need to feel sorry for a person because they are in their '70s though, I quite like it, but as I made clear, I am only considered 'vulnerable' by virtue of my age. I shop, travel locally on public transport and today went for a swim, - things that truly vulnerable people might not be able to enjoy.

For goodness sake how many times are you going to trot out the same things? We're not keeping everyone safe, that's an impossibility - like I said we're having other health issues, mental health issues, domestic violence issues - are those people safe? Not having a holiday is putting life on hold for many as that's what they do. If you want to keep everyone safe I suggest you have a massive rethink as what we're doing now is certainly not achieving that aim.

 

[Chester1]

For goodness sake how many times are you going to trot out the same things? We're not keeping everyone safe, that's an impossibility - like I said we're having other health issues, mental health issues, domestic violence issues - are those people safe? Not having a holiday is putting life on hold for many as that's what they do. If you want to keep everyone safe I suggest you have a massive rethink as what we're doing now is certainly not achieving that aim.

At the current rate of infection in the UK (approximately 1000 a day) it would take 200 years for 68 million people to get it. With a fatality rate of 0.5% the daily number of deaths from Covid-19 would stabilise at 5 (out of over 1500 daily deaths). This summer is as safe and as normal as things are going to be without a vaccine or eventual herd immunity through infection. People need to get out a hide away mentality and make the most of it because they may have a very long winter to talk about what they are missing out on. You are spot on about mental health issues, months of limited contact is not healthy.

Most people know the quarantine risk and the angry people the news pick out at Gatwick or Dover are not reflective. On the whole it seems that strangers are more concerned about the prospect of someone being quarantined than the person themselves!