Qualified vs non qualified

[notadriver]

Which is more likely? Training up an internal applicant or taking on an external qualified driver from another TOC?

 

[Minilad]

I would imagine it is up to each individual TOC.
At XC it would seem the latter is they way to go at the moment

 

[driver9000]

I suppose it would depend on the needs of the company. If they have a shortage of Drivers then it may be a question of who would be productive quickest. Naturally that is going to be the qualified Driver especially if they are already passed on the traction. Obviously the Drivers safety record would come into the equation which is shared between the TOC the Driver wants to leave and the one being applied to.

 

[Nym]

Well, one company, that shall remain nameless (French, Cheadle Heath, doing the signalling for Metrolink) would rather employ someone with the correct degree title than someone who actually has the required skills, that is unless they published a completely different list of job spec as was on their website.

On topic for a moment, training a driver, like many skilled trades is expensive.

It's not like WHSmith (although I beg to differ with this level of training given by managment) where you can be shown how the till works and then thrown on the floor on your own in a busy store with assistance 10 - 15mins away.

If I'm thinking right it's months worth of supervisory and shaddow training, so you need to pay for the instructor's hours, and the trainee driver's hours, simulator time, medicals, insurance etc. over and above just throwing them in the cab and saying, "That makes it go forward, that makes it go backward, keep ya foot on there and hit that button when it beeps at you.." (That would be the training that a WHS Manager would give) it's a hell of a lot more in depth than that, and time = money.

If you only need to do a conversion course from say... a driver from EMT that did Sprinters to train them on how to do the Turbostars, thats a lot less time and money than teaching and examining all of the track theory etc... THEN still teaching them the turbostar

 

[TDK]

Which is more likely? Training up an internal applicant or taking on an external qualified driver from another TOC?

Without a doubt taking on a qualified driver from anywhere rather than train someone up from scratch or from an internal application. It takes approximately 9 months from start to finish for a non qualified and depending on the training needs anaysis of a qualified anything from a couple of weeks to 2 or 3 months.

When a post is available this is the order:

1. Qualified driver with some knowledge required for the TOC
2. Qualified driver from the same type of service (passenger/freight)
3. Qualified driver from anywhere.
4. Internal with safety critical qualifications
5. Internal from anywhere
6. Someone from the railway business (signaller/Fitter/Tech)
7. Someone from outside the railway business.

However there is a rule in place somewhere that says that companies must employ a certain amount of people from outside the business.
6. Outside the railway industry

 

[Legzr1]

To train someone 'from the street' to drive competently takes money as well as time.

£120,000 - £150,000 was the latest figure being bandied around.

Take on a qualified driver,add a few days for traction and a few weeks/months for core routes and you've got a 'free' driver for 2-3 years.

You're an HR bod/finance director in a 'for-profit' company - which would you choose?

 

[LCC106]

@Legzr1 as someone who works in HR outside the industry, I can understand why a qualified driver would be the preference. As someone who's just had my structured interview though I hope I'm one of the externals they'll appoint!

 

[ThomasTTE]

Legs, I'm with LCC on this.

If we're being pragmatic in a very challenging economic climate, then yes, its a no brainer to select industry internals. Why then bother advertising for external candidates if, deep down, recruiters are pre-conditioned.

It's unfair to those outside the industry who believe they stand a fighting chance and potentially unethical to be prejudiced towards your preferred group.

I would hope that the Railway industry is fully embracing a modern approach to recruitment in being honest and open and selecting the best person (s) for the job on merit, not because he/she is already 'one of us'. If a candidate posesses the skills and experiences as defined by the job spec, then it should be a fair and honest competition.

Otherwise there is no point in externals ever applying! :-x

Merry Crimbo to all

TTTE

 

[Minilad]

Legs, I'm with LCC on this.

If we're being pragmatic in a very challenging economic climate, then yes, its a no brainer to select industry internals. Why then bother advertising for external candidates if, deep down, recruiters are pre-conditioned.

It's unfair to those outside the industry who believe they stand a fighting chance and potentially unethical to be prejudiced towards your preferred group.

I would hope that the Railway industry is fully embracing a modern approach to recruitment in being honest and open and selecting the best person (s) for the job on merit, not because he/she is already 'one of us'. If a candidate posesses the skills and experiences as defined by the job spec, then it should be a fair and honest competition.

Otherwise there is no point in externals ever applying! :-x

Merry Crimbo to all

TTTE

OK so you get 2 applications for the post of driver. One is a currently certified driver with a good safety record and the other is from someone outside the industry who might have the relevant skills / aptitude but has never driven a train in his life. Who is the best candidate for the job.

 

[Shrub Hill]

you also have to take into account that not all TOC's have the facilitys to train large numbers of drivers from scratch! this goes hand in hand with the amount of drivers a company employs, some TOC's have in excess of 1000 drivers on the payroll where as some might have less than 100, the third thing you have to keep in mind is also the so called prestige of a company, some will only take qualified drivers with x amount of experience, entice them with better pay and terms, this will keep there turnover of staff down, meaning they retain there experience and recruit less! all swings and roundabouts!

hardest part about the railways is getting a job, once you are in its easy, far too many people sit around for years waiting for a place at their local depot, in this day and age you have to be flexible in terms of the ability to relocate and the desire to put yourself through all the upheaval of family life that entails, as well as the short term financial burden!

 

[notadriver]

At the moment the depot I want is training up internals, took on an external trainee but has no room for qualifieds (at the moment).

 

[Legzr1]

Legs, I'm with LCC on this.

If we're being pragmatic in a very challenging economic climate, then yes, its a no brainer to select industry internals. Why then bother advertising for external candidates if, deep down, recruiters are pre-conditioned.

It's unfair to those outside the industry who believe they stand a fighting chance and potentially unethical to be prejudiced towards your preferred group.

I would hope that the Railway industry is fully embracing a modern approach to recruitment in being honest and open and selecting the best person (s) for the job on merit, not because he/she is already 'one of us'. If a candidate posesses the skills and experiences as defined by the job spec, then it should be a fair and honest competition.

Otherwise there is no point in externals ever applying! :-x

Merry Crimbo to all

TTTE

Hey!

All I did was try to put myself in the position of someone recruiting - I don't necessarily agree with all (or any!) of their decisions!

I've done this job long enough to see all facets - 'newbies' with arrogance after training dropping themselves in it within months of passing out (hence all the PQA's that are rigorously audited) but i've also had the pleasure of working with some great people that have done everything from fighting in Serbia to selling prestige cars (and everything inbetween) and some of them have gone on to be great 'railway men'.

If you're good enough then you're good enough in my opinion - the problem is you have to face facts - money is money unfortunately.

That doesn't mean giving up - keep trying.

Cream will float to the top,shi* always sinks eventually

hardest part about the railways is getting a job, once you are in its easy,

That sentence,right there,tells me you have no (or very little) experience of driving trains in the modern era!

Easy?

How?

 

[ThomasTTE]

Hi Legs, XC

Not trying to be confrontational or critical of your views which are all perfectly valid.

Just asking the questions, challenging existing convention and entrenched practices.

 

[TDK]

Legs, I'm with LCC on this.

Why then bother advertising for external candidates if, deep down, recruiters are pre-conditioned.

It's unfair to those outside the industry who believe they stand a fighting chance and potentially unethical to be prejudiced towards your preferred group.

Because it isn't certain that a qualified driver will apply for the post so the TOC will advertise it as an open vacancy, if a qualified driver applied they will normally get the post

 

[sultanofswing]

But 50 years down the line, if train companies always hire qualified drivers, they will eventually run out. So it is in the toc's interest to train someone at 25 and get 40 years out of them.

Plus, a toc can train someone from scratch to their standards.

 

[MrC]

Hey!
That sentence,right there,tells me you have no (or very little) experience of driving trains in the modern era!

Easy?

How?

I think may you need to re-read what Shrub Hill actually wrote He/she ain't knocking the driving role just saying that too many people try and hang on for a non-existent job at a local depot rather than getting a vacancy ASAP elsewhere then (possibly) transferring back as an experienced driver.

 

[TDK]

But 50 years down the line, if train companies always hire qualified drivers, they will eventually run out. So it is in the toc's interest to train someone at 25 and get 40 years out of them.

Plus, a toc can train someone from scratch to their standards.

That is a valid point but as the industry is in decline at the moment especially with the wind down of DBS there is a huge influx of qualified drivers available for positions, however of course eventually candidates from poutside the business will be needed and this is why there are usually some vacancies filled with trainee drivers the training does cost a large amount of money for a candidate from scratch and it will take 4 years of service for the TOC to break even on profit in most cases. As for training up someone and getting 40 years out of them isn't an accurate statement as many drivers move companies and this is quite common.

 

[Legzr1]

I think may you need to re-read what Shrub Hill actually wrote He/she ain't knocking the driving role just saying that too many people try and hang on for a non-existent job at a local depot rather than getting a vacancy ASAP elsewhere then (possibly) transferring back as an experienced driver.

No.

When you quote a sentence out of context (as I did) the questions I asked were perfectly valid.

 

[Shrub Hill]

Hey!

All I did was try to put myself in the position of someone recruiting - I don't necessarily agree with all (or any!) of their decisions!

I've done this job long enough to see all facets - 'newbies' with arrogance after training dropping themselves in it within months of passing out (hence all the PQA's that are rigorously audited) but i've also had the pleasure of working with some great people that have done everything from fighting in Serbia to selling prestige cars (and everything inbetween) and some of them have gone on to be great 'railway men'.

If you're good enough then you're good enough in my opinion - the problem is you have to face facts - money is money unfortunately.

That doesn't mean giving up - keep trying.

Cream will float to the top,shi* always sinks eventually





That sentence,right there,tells me you have no (or very little) experience of driving trains in the modern era!

Easy?

How?

a poor choice of words i agree! the point i was trying to make and you will obviously be fully aware is that once in in the industry and with the right amount of experience it is far easier ( although no garuntee) to reach your end game than to wait around waiting for a job to appear that would allow you to start in your depot of choice

it was in no way meant to be a reflection of the job itself!

 

[sultanofswing]

As for training up someone and getting 40 years out of them isn't an accurate statement as many drivers move companies and this is quite common.

sorry, maybe i meant the industry as a whole, not just one toc. Although this is only beneficial to the industry and not individual toc's.

 

[Grantham]

Murphy's law applies too. If you want a job and you're a qualified driver, they're putting on new starters. If you want a job as a new starter, they want qualified drivers!

Mick