Puzzling question asked on train

[Undiscovered]

Do you know if this is the case with TfW? There's a very split thing with the conductors (on the trains I regularly take), some check/scan every single persons ticket no matter the format, some check the paper ones but wave off scanning the e/m-tickets and smart cards,

Thing is, with scanning tickets, the system knows you've scanned it. The system also report what you do with it.

So, if you scan a ticket with a Railcard attached, you have to check the Railcard before you can accept the ticket. If you accept without checking, and it later comes to light the passenger never had a Railcard, the fact you accepted the ticket incorrectly will come to light. Which is not doing your job correctly, which, depending on your record, could lead to a 'Please Explain...'

If I don't scan your ticket, I have no such problems. Either paper tickets, I wave my hand and, magically, your ticket is valid and your Railcard pristine and shiny and new. Even if you can't provide it later on...

 

[greatkingrat]

Thing is, with scanning tickets, the system knows you've scanned it. The system also report what you do with it.

So, if you scan a ticket with a Railcard attached, you have to check the Railcard before you can accept the ticket. If you accept without checking, and it later comes to light the passenger never had a Railcard, the fact you accepted the ticket incorrectly will come to light. Which is not doing your job correctly, which, depending on your record, could lead to a 'Please Explain...'

If I don't scan your ticket, I have no such problems. Either paper tickets, I wave my hand and, magically, your ticket is valid and your Railcard pristine and shiny and new. Even if you can't provide it later on...

So you don't get a "Please Explain" if you don't scan anything at all?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

So, if you scan a ticket with a Railcard attached, you have to check the Railcard before you can accept the ticket. If you accept without checking, and it later comes to light the passenger never had a Railcard, the fact you accepted the ticket incorrectly will come to light. Which is not doing your job correctly, which, depending on your record, could lead to a 'Please Explain...'

That makes it weird how infrequently I get my railcard checked then by guards if there's risk on not checking it.

 

[embers25]

Scanning tickets for later in the journey is great until the train gets delayed or cancelled and you have to change route and encounter a jobsworth guard who says your ticket has been used and can't be bothered to check your reason for rerouting (the majority of XC or EMR on train staff I've come across). Another issue arises if you have 2 non-advance tickets you are using as a split by stopping short on one and starting short on the other because the fares are way cheaper. For example, I almost never buy tickets to Guildford, Woking or Basingstoke due to the premium SWR put on tickets to those three stations (particularly Woking), but I often split at them with tickets that neither start or end at any of them.

 

[Facing Back]

Scanning tickets for later in the journey is great until the train gets delayed or cancelled and you have to change route and encounter a jobsworth guard who says your ticket has been used and can't be bothered to check your reason for rerouting (the majority of XC or EMR on train staff I've come across). Another issue arises if you have 2 non-advance tickets you are using as a split by stopping short on one and starting short on the other because the fares are way cheaper. For example, I almost never buy tickets to Guildford, Woking or Basingstoke due to the premium SWR put on tickets to those three stations (particularly Woking), but I often split at them with tickets that neither start or end at any of them.

I had understood from comments here that both stopping and starting short are not allowed and your tickets are invalid. That being the case I can see why you would not want to get them all checked!

 

[bradleyd]

I had understood from comments here that both stopping and starting short are not allowed and your tickets are invalid. That being the case I can see why you would not want to get them all checked!

I believe that embers25 mentioned that they are not advance tickets, and so don't have the same stopping and starting short detriment

 

[TUC]

I had understood from comments here that both stopping and starting short are not allowed and your tickets are invalid. That being the case I can see why you would not want to get them all checked!

But they are allowed, unless the conditions of the specific ticket say otherwise.

 

[Undiscovered]

So you don't get a "Please Explain" if you don't scan anything at all?

Not currently, for my TOC. They're just rolling that out shortly...

 

[AgeoftheTrain7]

Thing is, with scanning tickets, the system knows you've scanned it. The system also report what you do with it.

So, if you scan a ticket with a Railcard attached, you have to check the Railcard before you can accept the ticket. If you accept without checking, and it later comes to light the passenger never had a Railcard, the fact you accepted the ticket incorrectly will come to light. Which is not doing your job correctly, which, depending on your record, could lead to a 'Please Explain...'

If I don't scan your ticket, I have no such problems. Either paper tickets, I wave my hand and, magically, your ticket is valid and your Railcard pristine and shiny and new. Even if you can't provide it later on...

Conscious this may be slightly off-topic (will start a new thread if necessary)...

How would this work with Disabled Persons Railcards? Does the system automatically recognise that only one Railcard needs to be scanned, despite there being (in some cases) two travellers using the same card and discount, because of the companion rule that also entitles them to a 1/3 off?

It's just that I've noticed when buying E-Tickets for a Disabled card holder and a companion that they are both printed as saying 1 Adult 'with Disabled Persons Railcard'.
Just wondering if this would pose an issue to the new scanning of Railcards that I'm seeing more and more frequently on different TOCs' services.

 

[Bantamzen]

Scanning tickets for later in the journey is great until the train gets delayed or cancelled and you have to change route and encounter a jobsworth guard who says your ticket has been used and can't be bothered to check your reason for rerouting (the majority of XC or EMR on train staff I've come across).

Does the ticket scanning data even get uplifted en-route and made available elsewhere? Judging by the speed of the scans done on Northern trains, there appears to be no waiting from a response from database. So I'd be surprised if this happens simply because a ticket has been scanned previously.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Judging by the speed of the scans done on Northern trains, there appears to be no waiting from a response from database.

I've had 1 RPI who walked up to us a bit quicker scan my ticket, then the other one scanned it and immediately knew that the other one had done like 30 seconds prior.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does the ticket scanning data even get uplifted en-route and made available elsewhere? Judging by the speed of the scans done on Northern trains, there appears to be no waiting from a response from database. So I'd be surprised if this happens simply because a ticket has been scanned previously.

On Avanti they seem to just scan constantly and only if they get the sound that signifies a problem do they go back and find out why.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've had 1 RPI who walked up to us a bit quicker scan my ticket, then the other one scanned it and immediately knew that the other one had done like 30 seconds prior.

On Avanti they seem to just scan constantly and only if they get the sound that signifies a problem do they go back and find out why.

It would be interesting to know if the scanners do actually communicate in real time to databases, or just record and check for the current service. Coming along the Calder Valley yesterday the guard wasn't having any issues scanning and anyone that's been along that route will know just how flaky the mobile signal can be.

 

[Undiscovered]

Not sure. I think the quick succession in scanning both tickets would show that they're both valid, as, like a Two Together, you'd expect them to be sat next to each other.

Generally, I only check certain Railcards- DSB or others I'm not to fussed about. Most irregularities are with the 16-30 suite of cards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2023 ==

It would be interesting to know if the scanners do actually communicate in real time to databases, or just record and check for the current service. Coming along the Calder Valley yesterday the guard wasn't having any issues scanning and anyone that's been along that route will know just how flaky the mobile signal can be.

Yes, they do. I can also look at my device and see exactly when and where the ticket was previously scanned. You can catch out folks using the same ticket to go back and forward along an unbarriered line all day. Usually, they're running 'parcels' for others...

 

[Facing Back]

I believe that embers25 mentioned that they are not advance tickets, and so don't have the same stopping and starting short detriment

Fair enough. As you are allowed to break your journey on an open ticket I can see that.

 

[embers25]

Fair enough. As you are allowed to break your journey on an open ticket I can see that.

You can break your journey on almost all non advance tickets.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes, they do. I can also look at my device and see exactly when and where the ticket was previously scanned. You can catch out folks using the same ticket to go back and forward along an unbarriered line all day. Usually, they're running 'parcels' for others...

Thanks for that, its interesting to know.

 

[LowLevel]

Does the ticket scanning data even get uplifted en-route and made available elsewhere? Judging by the speed of the scans done on Northern trains, there appears to be no waiting from a response from database. So I'd be surprised if this happens simply because a ticket has been scanned previously.

Generally yes. If you have no data connection it goes into offline mode but still functions, then as soon as the data connection is back it updates in a moment.

I can tell you to the second where, when or by whom a ticket has been scanned by checking the scan history. If I do a full grip having taken over a train en route where a colleague had already scanned tickets I have to override it manually because it gets upset and thinks they've already been used.

 

[Bantamzen]

Generally yes. If you have no data connection it goes into offline mode but still functions, then as soon as the data connection is back it updates in a moment.

I can tell you to the second where, when or by whom a ticket has been scanned by checking the scan history. If I do a full grip having taken over a train en route where a colleague had already scanned tickets I have to override it manually because it gets upset and thinks they've already been used.

That's actually pretty impressive, although it does sound like some tweaking is needed where tickets are scanned a second time. Now hopefully the same people who've been able to develop that can resolve the little issue I have when travelling from Baildon to Warrington Bank Quay via Bradford, where the Forster Square gates accept them but the ones at Bradford Interchange don't....

 

[Gathursty]

Also, because it's unsettling to scan 50 odd tickets to sowerby, and then see no one leave the train....

Why is it unsettling for you?

 

[jamiearmley]

Why is it unsettling for you?

One starts to doubt oneself : has the announcement been heard? Do I need to go through the train loudly shouting the current station? Am I going to carry people past their intended destination, and then be faced with unhappy passengers, some of whom may be aggressive, maybe violent?

It's good customer service on the local trains I work to keep an eye out for people, note where they are going, and certainly if they are vulnerable in any way ( which includes being in drink) ensure they don't travel past their stop : especially late at night. It's also an approach which helps to reduce the number of conflict situations I am exposed to.

We are talking here of course about little 2 car diesel trains trundling about at 65mph on local routes.

Common sense, really.

 

[LowLevel]

Why is it unsettling for you?

That should be obvious. I keep a mental note especially late at night of roughly what I expect to see at which station. Loads of tickets to a place and no one getting off without further explanation would probably be enough to provoke me to go in to the coach to see if everything is OK.

 

[Gathursty]

I understand the concern just the word 'unsettling' seemed out of place to me but dictionary definition checks out. Do most services stop at Sowerby Bridge anyway?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I understand the concern just the word 'unsettling' seemed out of place to me but dictionary definition checks out. Do most services stop at Sowerby Bridge anyway?

Half do half don't it appears.

 

[reb0118]

If I do a full grip having taken over a train en route where a colleague had already scanned tickets I have to override it manually because it gets upset and thinks they've already been used.

We have recently gone live with this (or a similar system). The issue might be how you input your ad hoc duty. Previously it was common practice to select one's boarding point to the final destination of one's train. This made sense in that one would have full timetable & fares data for the train worked.

However, seemingly we are only meant to input the section that we actually work - therefore any ticket scanned will only be "clipped" between those points. Any future scan beyond were one leaves the train will therefore show, ceteris paribus, as valid.